This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University • Hacker News Board

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#581

Post by AnimalMuppet » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 6:49 PM UTC

ikeboy wrote: post #134

Overtonwindow wrote: post #85

This is really fantastic. While I don't agree with religion in university (but if it works for you great!) I completely agree with the gist of her argument. Students are coddled too much. If you're not uncomfortable then you're not paying attention. If you need "trigger warnings" or "safe spaces" at a university then you're not ready for university, or at the very least, you have a lot of growing up to do. This may s…

The defense to "you're being a jerk" can only be "I'm not". This article says "I am, but it's okay, get used to it". There's a huge difference between telling someone that their beliefs are wrong to telling them that they are bad and should feel guilty, especially if the doctrine says that everyone is bad and should feel guilty all the time.

> The defense to "you're being a jerk" can only be "I'm not".

No, because the response is going to be "Yes you are", and we descend into a shouting match. The reply is "What is your standard for 'being a jerk', and is that standard a reasonable one?"

> There's a huge difference between telling someone that their beliefs are wrong to telling them that they are bad and should feel guilty, especially if the doctrine says that everyone is bad and should feel guilty all the time.

That seems like a fair description of how "victimhood culture" treats the rest of us.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#582

Post by yummyfajitas » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 6:51 PM UTC

danans wrote: post #522

yummyfajitas wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand - a white supremacist took a quantity from the DOJ, then took a percentage from the DOJ, and multiplied them together to get a new quantity. Does multiplication become invalid when a white supremacist does it? Or do DOJ stats become false when a racist cites them? Please, I would like to understand your logic. I do find it a bit scary that when I google "black on white crime", only racist sites sho…

The problem is that they are highlighting a far less significant phenomenon (cross racial violent crime) to further their white supremacist agenda. The vast majority of homicides (which the DOJ data excludes) committed against whites are committed by whites, and the vast majority against blacks are committed by blacks. The number of cross-racial homicides are an order of magnitude less in either direction. Don't take…

Should they all be terrified...

Where did I advocate that anyone should be terrified? This is what I said about such fears: "his feelings are completely irrational and entirely his problem."

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#583

Post by mfisher87 » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 6:54 PM UTC

lghh wrote: post #267

kelukelugames wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recommend adding a /s tag. The other poster didn't catch the sarcasm.

Oh, it's sarcasm? I really didn't know. That's an opinion I see pretty much everywhere so I just assumed it was serious, haha.

:) Who knows?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#584

Post by mfisher87 » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 6:55 PM UTC

mkrfox wrote: post #516

warfangle wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a stark difference between what people who dislike the concept of "safe space" think a "safe space" is and what a "safe space" actually is. A "safe space" is a place where you know you aren't going to be singled out and harmed (verbally or physically) by someone telling you that you're a queer faggot and deserve to die. A "safe space" is a place where people can discuss the actual issues of hatred, bigotry an…

That's what's so annoying. Everyone's having this big screaming conversation about something and using the words for something else, like they're working with some kind of bilingual dictionary. The entries for "safe space" and "trigger warning" got mixed up with a Sudoku puzzle, and everyone's pretending it makes perfect sense instead of looking for a better dictionary.

It's almost like I read a book by George Orwell about this kind of thing.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#585

Post by a-saleh » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 7:03 PM UTC

I am reading a response of a pastor to a students complaint on a sermon.

If I could read the sermon, or the complaint, I could comment on the response to the complaint.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#586

Post by angersock » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 7:04 PM UTC

alexqgb wrote: post #561

angersock wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the disdain for these safe spaces is necessarily from sexism and hatred (though HN has issues with those). The basic "problem" from developer culture is that it is heavily rooted in systems logic, and frankly safe spaces as proposed and as advertised and as popularly understood are illogical. Very simply, using your definition, the safe space both proclaims to allow discussion and then by its very defin…

You've mistaken discussion in general—which encompasses a fairly broad range of exchanges—with a particularly narrow subset that is characterized by clearly defined and opposing positions, along with acceptance of adversarial engagement from "both sides" of the issue. There's a time and a place for that, to be sure, but there are many more cases in which the forceful imposition of a binary outlook has effects that ar…

I would suggest that the most people would have a decent chance of having non-combative discussion; however, the construction of the spaces tends to throw out those folks along with the more toxic and dedicated trolls and harassers.

Moreover, even attempts at polite discussion are often dismissed as sealioning or whatnot--and thus, by being hypersensitive and assuming a victim stance, truly productive and civil discourse is prevented.

Additionally, these spaces do not facilitate a "productive" exchange: we can wager that few really new ideas are being exchanged. Politely, it's a chance to reaffirm values and provide a sense of belonging and comfort. Impolitely, it's a circlejerk.

If people need a place to find comfort, that's great! To claim anything other than that, especially that it somehow is some setting for honest and fair discourse, is a misrepresentation.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#587

Post by noobermin » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 7:09 PM UTC

warfangle wrote: post #576

tristor wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point, I realize you're trolling, but in the interest of anyone else reading I feel it's appropriate to reply. I'm someone who pretty universally supports the rights of others to be themselves, however that might be, and be treated with respect as a human being. That said, the term "safe space" is something I've never personally encountered being used in the context you present it in. When a group of like-min…

> it's not appropriate to ask that an authority come in and forcibly establish a zone in a shared space where-in some speech is okay and other speech is not. How do you feel about your HR department and their anti-discrimination and harassment policies? :) You get more protections from harassment in the workplace than students get on campus. Tolerance of intolerance (e.g., hate speech) leads inevitability to the exti…

The poster you're replying to stresses again and again that this refers to public spaces. Even so, I'm not sure discrimination and harassment reach the same bar as discussing things like abortion in the abstract, for example.

Personally, I'm not sure I'd support anyone harassing another personally, although if speech isn't intimidating to a person, you can't say it's harassment, I think (IANAL).

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#588

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 7:10 PM UTC

aggieben wrote: post #566

warfangle wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a stark difference between what people who dislike the concept of "safe space" think a "safe space" is and what a "safe space" actually is. A "safe space" is a place where you know you aren't going to be singled out and harmed (verbally or physically) by someone telling you that you're a queer faggot and deserve to die. A "safe space" is a place where people can discuss the actual issues of hatred, bigotry an…

A "safe space" is a place where you know you aren't going to be singled out and harmed (verbally or physically) by someone telling you that you're a queer faggot and deserve to die. FWIW, this concept of safe space isn't quite what I had in mind. I think, perhaps, what I failed to articulate is that the safe space concept that grinds my gears is the kind that is an expectation carried around by people who really do j…

[deleted]

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#589

Post by brightball » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 7:11 PM UTC

warfangle wrote: post #579

aggieben wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A "safe space" is a place where you know you aren't going to be singled out and harmed (verbally or physically) by someone telling you that you're a queer faggot and deserve to die. FWIW, this concept of safe space isn't quite what I had in mind. I think, perhaps, what I failed to articulate is that the safe space concept that grinds my gears is the kind that is an expectation carried around by people who really do j…

The professor is the one who brought up the safe place terminology in this instance. Not the student. One thing to realize, also, is the context of love (as the topic of discussion in the classroom was in 1 Corinthians 13) in many evangelical circles. Love, defined in many conservative christian circles, is devotion to the Church, the Husband and God, to the exclusion of all else. Even when it hurts. It's about stayi…

"Love, defined in many conservative christian circles, is devotion to the Church, the Husband and God, to the exclusion of all else."

Please do not read any tone into what I'm saying here, because if you've gotten that message I honestly don't know how. "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another." - John 13:34

The verse you reference above is in the context of marriage and you hear it a lot at weddings, but the context of love within Christian community is always going to go straight to the way that Jesus defined it. There's no part of the Christian community that is going to try to override what Jesus said. "Just as I have loved you" means unconditionally. It doesn't mean as long as they agree with you, have the same color skin as you, speak the same language as you or fit some specific stencil.

I realize this is a bit off-kilter for Hacker News but sermons that talk about how we are all sinners in need of forgiveness are there specifically for two reasons.

1. No matter what you have done, God will forgive you. No matter what you have done, God loves you.

2. Because God will forgive the worst of us who truly asks for forgiveness, we have no right to deny forgiveness to anyone who truly asks for it either.

I've visited a lot of different churches throughout the southeast in my life and I've never once heard a minister say anything that implies anything other than the above.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#590

Post by aggieben » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 7:11 PM UTC

warfangle wrote: post #579

aggieben wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A "safe space" is a place where you know you aren't going to be singled out and harmed (verbally or physically) by someone telling you that you're a queer faggot and deserve to die. FWIW, this concept of safe space isn't quite what I had in mind. I think, perhaps, what I failed to articulate is that the safe space concept that grinds my gears is the kind that is an expectation carried around by people who really do j…

The professor is the one who brought up the safe place terminology in this instance. Not the student. One thing to realize, also, is the context of love (as the topic of discussion in the classroom was in 1 Corinthians 13) in many evangelical circles. Love, defined in many conservative christian circles, is devotion to the Church, the Husband and God, to the exclusion of all else. Even when it hurts. It's about stayi…

The professor is the one who brought up the safe place terminology in this instance. Not the student.

I guess "safe space" (quoted as a term under discussion) isn't really the right term here - but the student is the one who raised the issue of "victimization", which to my mind is really more what we're talking about than actual safe spaces as you defined them. So on this point, that might actually be good feedback to that professor, because I think struggling with the terminology in this particular topic is common.

One thing to realize ...is the context of love ...in many evangelical circles

As a conservative evangelical myself, your explanation of the Christian concept of love is somewhat confusing and contradictory to me. But putting that aside, I still don't see how this student felt "victimized", unless now any negative feeling or emotion makes one a victim. Feeling guilty for failing to live up to a standard is a negative feeling, but I don't think it makes one a victim (and if it does, then I think the word victim becomes utterly void of meaning).