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A Decade-Old Gag Order, Lifted

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Re: A Decade-Old Gag Order, Lifted

#41

Post by brandonmenc »

jamoes wrote: post #25
raquo wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By all appearances, a significant chunk of the US law enforcement apparatus has simply gone rogue, stopped respecting Congress and the courts and is instead focused on increasing its own power. I truly don't understand why nothing is done about that. Why doesn't anyone lose their job over this, let alone go to jail? I mean, I've gotten used to such indifference in Russia, but US seemed like the country that shouldn…

> I truly don't understand why nothing is done about that. Why doesn't anyone lose their job over this, let alone go to jail? My suspicion is that the FBI and various three-letter-agencies have dirt on most of the elected representatives. The mass surveillance apparatus is the perfect tool for collecting blackmail material on current and future leaders.

> The mass surveillance apparatus is the perfect tool for collecting blackmail material on current and future leaders.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

It's shocking how rarely you hear this angle on things, but it's easily the most sinister aspect of these programs.

Re: A Decade-Old Gag Order, Lifted

#42

Post by wmeredith »

jimrandomh wrote: post #8

This is reporting that Nick Merrill, who was under a gag order restricting his ability to talk about a subpoena he received in 2004, is no longer gagged. It links to an editorial he wrote (anonymously) about that gag order, http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03... , in which he writes: > "Based on the context of the demand -- a context that the FBI still won't let me discuss publicly -- I suspe…

I'm hijacking the top comment here to link directly to the ACLU donation page. You should do a one-time donation or become a member, if you care about this stuff. The ACLU is on the front lines of this war every day.

https://action.aclu.org/secure/our-civil-liberties-are-under...

(I have no affiliation with the ACLU other than having been a member for some years now.)

Re: A Decade-Old Gag Order, Lifted

#43

Post by tptacek »

poof131 wrote: post #32
raquo wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but I'm wondering more about the inaction of other federal powers. Congress, President, I don't really know whose job it is, but someone in this country should have the power to deal with rogue government agencies? They don't appoint themselves.

The President has all the power to curtail these abuses. Unfortunately, reducing your own power is not something that comes naturally to most people. Additionally, any reduction in the national security apparatus will be a political disaster if another terrorist attack happens, so inaction is the prudent political course. It’s a tough problem to deal with and currently it seems a majority of Americans are more concer…

The President technically has that power, but in reality the DOJ's policy is set by the Attorney General, and the historical relationships between Presidents and their A.G.s has tended to be fraught.

Mostly, what the President can do in reality is fire the AG. But if Obama does that, he'll have to find and get confirmed a new AG. If you're outraged by NSLs, the new AG Obama could confirm in this climate is unlikely to be an improvement.

Re: A Decade-Old Gag Order, Lifted

#44

Post by eric_h »

caseysoftware wrote: post #40
eric_h wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow - it's astonishing that you can't even speak about NSLs with people who (or at least some of whom) have top secret clearance...

Just because you're cleared in one area/agency doesn't mean you have access to anything of that level or lower. Clearances are entirely need to know. I'm not sure of the rules today, but 10 years ago clearances in some agencies/departments didn't even transfer to other agencies due to differing requirements. (I'm not saying that this system is good, just describing how it works.)

Thank you for the clarification.

Nevertheless, I feel like there should be some recourse in the system to appeal to a branch of government other than the secret judicial branch in circumstances like this...

Re: A Decade-Old Gag Order, Lifted

#45

Post by tormeh »

poof131 wrote: post #32
raquo wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but I'm wondering more about the inaction of other federal powers. Congress, President, I don't really know whose job it is, but someone in this country should have the power to deal with rogue government agencies? They don't appoint themselves.

The President has all the power to curtail these abuses. Unfortunately, reducing your own power is not something that comes naturally to most people. Additionally, any reduction in the national security apparatus will be a political disaster if another terrorist attack happens, so inaction is the prudent political course. It’s a tough problem to deal with and currently it seems a majority of Americans are more concer…

This. Reducing the size of the security apparatus is a very politically costly move. Politicians sometimes do politically costly things, e.g. Merkel and the refugees, but it really has to be tremendously important for them to do that thing for them to put their political life on the line.

Few politicians has hitherto had privacy as their personal favorite value and therefore few politicians has been willing to put his political life on the line for privacy. Anyway, it's not a very inspiring thing to care about - some security hawk is probably going to just reverse everything you've done afterwards.

Re: A Decade-Old Gag Order, Lifted

#46

Post by icanhackit »

tptacek wrote: post #36
saosebastiao wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The FBI's founding director had this very tactic as his modus operandi. It isn't hard to speculate that the culture of the FBI has supported political extortion for well over 80 years now.

That's true. J Edgar Hoover did do this. Of course, Hoover is also one of the great villains of US history, and there was a major course-correction in the 1970s regarding the legal process federal law enforcement has to adhere to. "The FBI is run by the modern equivalent of J. Edgar Hoover" is also an amusing and dramatic interpretation of the facts we have now. But they don't square well with other facts we know, su…

But they don't square well with other facts we know, such as Ashcroft's hospital-bed refusal to reauthorize STELLARWIND.

More info:

In March 2004, the Justice Department under Ashcroft ruled that the Stellar Wind domestic intelligence program was illegal. The day after the ruling, Ashcroft became critically ill with acute pancreatitis. President Bush sent his White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales and Chief of Staff Andrew Card Jr. to Ashcroft's hospital bed. They wanted him to sign a document reversing the Justice Department's ruling. But the semi-conscious Ashcroft refused to sign; Acting Attorney General James Comey and Jack Goldsmith, head of the Office of Legal Counsel for DOJ, were there to back him up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ashcroft#As_U.S._Attorney...

Original Source: http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09072007/transcript2.html

Re: A Decade-Old Gag Order, Lifted

#47

Post by tailgate »

jamoes wrote: post #25
raquo wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By all appearances, a significant chunk of the US law enforcement apparatus has simply gone rogue, stopped respecting Congress and the courts and is instead focused on increasing its own power. I truly don't understand why nothing is done about that. Why doesn't anyone lose their job over this, let alone go to jail? I mean, I've gotten used to such indifference in Russia, but US seemed like the country that shouldn…

> I truly don't understand why nothing is done about that. Why doesn't anyone lose their job over this, let alone go to jail? My suspicion is that the FBI and various three-letter-agencies have dirt on most of the elected representatives. The mass surveillance apparatus is the perfect tool for collecting blackmail material on current and future leaders.

It's somewhat shocking that smart people will believe this with the only proof being a man who died over 40 years ago.

Re: A Decade-Old Gag Order, Lifted

#48

Post by tptacek »

icanhackit wrote: post #46
tptacek wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true. J Edgar Hoover did do this. Of course, Hoover is also one of the great villains of US history, and there was a major course-correction in the 1970s regarding the legal process federal law enforcement has to adhere to. "The FBI is run by the modern equivalent of J. Edgar Hoover" is also an amusing and dramatic interpretation of the facts we have now. But they don't square well with other facts we know, su…

But they don't square well with other facts we know, such as Ashcroft's hospital-bed refusal to reauthorize STELLARWIND. More info: In March 2004, the Justice Department under Ashcroft ruled that the Stellar Wind domestic intelligence program was illegal. The day after the ruling, Ashcroft became critically ill with acute pancreatitis. President Bush sent his White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales and Chief of Staff An…

This story is also featured in Barton Gellman's _Angler_, which is a great book, and if you're following the Snowden drama Gellman's name should be familiar.

Re: A Decade-Old Gag Order, Lifted

#49

Post by jacquesm »

tptacek wrote: post #36
saosebastiao wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The FBI's founding director had this very tactic as his modus operandi. It isn't hard to speculate that the culture of the FBI has supported political extortion for well over 80 years now.

That's true. J Edgar Hoover did do this. Of course, Hoover is also one of the great villains of US history, and there was a major course-correction in the 1970s regarding the legal process federal law enforcement has to adhere to. "The FBI is run by the modern equivalent of J. Edgar Hoover" is also an amusing and dramatic interpretation of the facts we have now. But they don't square well with other facts we know, su…

Hoover had plenty of apologists who were arguing that he was using these tactics only for good causes (such as against communism, today it would be terrorism or child pornography), it took a long time before anybody dared to speak out against this, he was simply too powerful.

Most likely today such direct blackmail of (domestic) politicians and other officials is not the case but you can't really rule it out completely.

The bad thing is that the reputation of the FBI and other such agencies is now such that an analogy with the Hoover days can no longer be rejected out of hand 'because they'd never do such a thing'.

They did in the past, for many years with many people, we know that for sure, and they quite possibly still do, see the thread linked here, after all what use could a decade old gag order have and do you actually believe that 100's of thousands of gag orders and NSLs can actually have a legitimate foundation?

That's to me beyond belief, that there are 100's of thousands of instances where the authorities issue permanent gag orders with respect to information gathering on individuals and that this is all somehow both legal and proportional use of powers vested in these agencies.

Re: A Decade-Old Gag Order, Lifted

#50

Post by jacquesm »

profeta wrote: post #17

now that the gag order is not in place, can we learn who the FBI was spying on? was it legitimate? if not, who approved it? this is a pointless victory unless we use it for accountability.

They withdrew the request. And presumably the privacy of that individual is still important enough not to disclose these details.
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