Live data from Hacker News

Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

piketty.blog.lemonde.fr

71–80 of 183 posts

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#71
post #63

On the surface this explanation doesn't make sense. Is there a correlation between extremists and countries with high income inequality? If so, provide some evidence apart from cherry picking countries which happen to have high inequality and other problems. Why aren't free democratic regimes which also have high inequality equally plagued by these problems? Also, energy prices have fallen dramatically, affecting the…

> "Members of Hezbollah's militant wing who were killed in action in the 1980s and early 1990s were at least as likely to come from economically advantaged families and have a relatively high level of education as they were to come from impoverished families without educational opportunities."

> "Instead of viewing terrorism as a direct response to low market opportunities or ignorance, we suggest it is more accurately viewed as a response to political conditions and long-standing feelings (either perceived or real) of indignity and frustration that have little to do with economics."

quoted in http://www.nber.org/digest/sep02/w9074.html

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#72
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll address the argument. Lots of countries with high income inequality do not have a terrorism problem. When is the last time Brazilians terrorists attacked New York and/or Paris? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_eq...

There's over 50,000 violent deaths per year in Brazil. Not that the Paris attacks weren't bad, but yes, Brazil suffers from violence due to inequality.

Ok, then how about China.

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#73
This misses the point entirely, I think. The problem isn't income inequality so much as low income in general in that region. There is very little opportunity. But low opportunity is coupled with generally high education and literacy rates and a massive population boom. A young population, unemployed intellectuals, and authoritarian government has always led to revolution. Always. It's human nature. It's happened at points in European history, and it's happened in China and Japan and elsewhere.

As a musician, I play some middle eastern music and own several instruments from the region. I have a doumbek (cast aluminum goblet drum) from the well-known GEF in Egypt, and another from Syria. The difference in construction quality is shocking. When showing the Syrian drum to people, I sometimes say "You've heard about the precision industrial powerhouses of Syrian manufacturing, right? No? Here's why." But what's even more shocking is the difference in the quality of the "good" Egyptian drum versus pretty much any instrument made in China or Indonesia these days - CNC-milled parts, quality finishes, and tight construction rule in even the cheapest Asian manufacturing.

Manufacturing in the Arab world, such as it is, is mostly trapped in the 19th century, unable to escape craftsman roots. This is terribly inefficient and unproductive. The Arab world is technologically incapable of manufacturing complex devices like cars and surface-mount electronics. And it's not for lack of educated people or a desire to do better. Other forces are at play here.

Revenue from raw resource extraction (oil) is just exploitation, and it's time-locked. Sooner or later, oil fields run dry, and they'll be back where they started, basically just agricultural communities. It's a shame, because the region and cultures there have provided some of the most important advances in history (like the number zero and algebra), and I'm sure it could rise to that effectiveness again, given the right conditions.

But oil exploitation is good for both the local authoritarian regimes, and for the western powers that run their economies on cheap Arab oil. That leads to a massive militarization and government-level resistance to modernization and advancement. It sucks. In a way, oil is the worst thing to happen to the middle east.

And who has an answer? Clearly, the world of desert kingdoms and post-fascist Baathist regimes is ripe for revolution. But the answers seem to be either go forward, into the scary world of modern relatively peaceful democracy and freedom, or backwards into the glory days of centuries ago. And the Islamic fundamentalists who want to go backwards are strengthened by the general lack of interest in the west for real democratization, and the preference for petty regimes we can control from afar.

Sigh.

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#74
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I don't understand why we shouldn't believe what's coming straight out of ISIS' mouth." Because they're proven masters at propaganda and messaging. To take prop at face value is the definition of naive. "ISIS has said they're killing us because of their interpretation of a book written in the first millennia." That's their justification for their actions, not the reason. Come on. Recruiting for ISIS pays $5000 - $10…

Ah. People are in poverty and to get out of poverty they blow themselves up in a public place such that they can murder a bunch of innocent civilians in the process. Got it. Good to know.

ISIS does a lot more than just suicide bombing. They aren't called the Islamic State just because. They have bureaucratic and governmental functions: http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/06/the...

So, yes, they could be the way out of poverty for some people.

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#75
post #44

I don't understand why we shouldn't believe what's coming straight out of ISIS' mouth. ISIS has said they're killing us because of their interpretation of a book written in the first millennia. They say this every time they attack us. Yet (mostly on the left) we keep coming up with reasons why this isn't the case. "No, actually, you're not attacking us for that reason, really it's our fault because we gave the oil to…

> Why don't we say that gunmen attack Planned Parenthoods because of income inequality in the United States? I do. I think the Planned Parenthood shooting is due to a combination of mental illness and lack of education. I don't think it really matters which crazy ideology you pick, you can use it to justify your actions. And if the crazy, uneducated, people weren't shooting up a Planned Parenthood, they would be shoo…

If it's income inequality, then why are most terrorists highly educated and relatively well off?

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#76

I don't understand why we shouldn't believe what's coming straight out of ISIS' mouth. ISIS has said they're killing us because of their interpretation of a book written in the first millennia. They say this every time they attack us. Yet (mostly on the left) we keep coming up with reasons why this isn't the case. "No, actually, you're not attacking us for that reason, really it's our fault because we gave the oil to…

There's a difference between the stated motive of ISIS and what enables them to exist and grow. I have a hard time believing that they can be so effective in their recruitment efforts with a message based entirely on an interpretation of an old book. It is more plausible to me that they prey on desperate, mentally unwell, and disaffected people to join their cause.

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#77
post #58

The cause of ISIS is Islamic extremism. Not income inequality. Not climate change. Islamic extremism. Those who claim otherwise are merely playing politics to advance political agendas. Sam Harris, the well-known atheist author and speaker, describes such people well[0]: "These people are part of what [Muslim reformist] Maajid Nawaz has termed the “regressive Left”—pseudo-liberals who are so blinded by identity polit…

People who hold to your preferred cause are the only sane ones, and everyone else is "merely playing politics." Cool.

Or maybe, just maybe, the real world is a little more complex than that. Maybe it is Islamic extremism and climate change and income inequality and a thousand other things all interacting with each other.

I don't doubt that Piketty is using ISIS to advance his agenda, because that's what people do. Everybody everywhere is using ISIS to advance their agenda. Piketty uses it to support his ideas about income inequality, and Sam Harris uses it to support his ideas about Islam.

Ultimately, pointing fingers does nothing. The question is, what do you do now to fix things? I don't see anything actionable on that front coming out of the "Islamic extremism" cause.

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is absolutely no credible, facts-driven research to suggest that lack of wealth, access to health care, access to mental health care, or access to education have a direct correlation to individuals joining terrorist groups or the rise of such groups. It's just a common trope repeated because it fits with people's existing ideologies. Terrorism is much more complicated than that.

I'll agree with you there. Among impoverished and religious, they're still a tiny percentage. It's definitely complex what causes the individuals to convert. However, the factors that promote it seem pretty consistent. ;)

I'd say that the factors are anything but consistent. The closest thing to consistency is the personal desire for an all-encompassing identity, being a part of something bigger than one's self, and being raised in a society or culture that reveres illiberalism and the combination of religion and state.

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#79
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's over 50,000 violent deaths per year in Brazil. Not that the Paris attacks weren't bad, but yes, Brazil suffers from violence due to inequality.

Ok, then how about China.

Believe it or not, China has significantly less inequality than Brazil (as measured by the World Bank)... Not to mention a social net.

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#80

I don't understand why we shouldn't believe what's coming straight out of ISIS' mouth. ISIS has said they're killing us because of their interpretation of a book written in the first millennia. They say this every time they attack us. Yet (mostly on the left) we keep coming up with reasons why this isn't the case. "No, actually, you're not attacking us for that reason, really it's our fault because we gave the oil to…

I won't pretend to know why everything is so fucked right now but I will make 2 points:

1) In general, the people actually doing the killings are far removed from the organization's leadership.

Here's an interesting piece on individual Isis fighters: http://www.thenation.com/article/what-i-discovered-from-inte...

2) Usually when someone is upset, they're very bad at articulating the actual thing that is upsetting them. Often when someone is upset, they'll say (and think) it's about something that is actually unrelated but happened to come right before the outburst of pent up frustration. To me, Islamism is a suspiciously rational explanation for completely irrational violence. Islam's pretty old, the book hasn't changed, but we're seeing a big spike in coordinated terror against civilians in the last couple years.

Post reply on HN