Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough • Hacker News Board

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#51

Post by fecklessyouth » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 9:02 PM UTC

Then what is behind the rise of the Islamic State's recruiting, whose targets aren't suffering any obvious economic strife?

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/22/world/middleeast/from-minn...

Modern liberalism offers no solution to the problem of evil. It assumes that as long as your basic needs are met, and you're mentally sane, that you will behave as a rational, non-violent person. It sees humans as essentially materialist, subject to the same universal desires, which can all be met in similar ways, and which are never distorted to any great degree. So it is stumped by the sort of despair that such jihadists harbor in their hearts, for according to its philosophical principles, such a thing should not be possible.

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#52

Post by colordrops » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 9:02 PM UTC

nateberkopec wrote: post #29

I don't understand why we shouldn't believe what's coming straight out of ISIS' mouth. ISIS has said they're killing us because of their interpretation of a book written in the first millennia. They say this every time they attack us. Yet (mostly on the left) we keep coming up with reasons why this isn't the case. "No, actually, you're not attacking us for that reason, really it's our fault because we gave the oil to…

To address your analogy, proponents of Planned Parenthood aren't killing pro-lifers en mass using robots and tacitly supporting the most extreme pro-lifers to address a third enemy. The analogy doesn't work at all.

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#53

Post by NoMoreNicksLeft » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 9:03 PM UTC

nateberkopec wrote: post #29

I don't understand why we shouldn't believe what's coming straight out of ISIS' mouth. ISIS has said they're killing us because of their interpretation of a book written in the first millennia. They say this every time they attack us. Yet (mostly on the left) we keep coming up with reasons why this isn't the case. "No, actually, you're not attacking us for that reason, really it's our fault because we gave the oil to…

Why would I believe their reasons?

If there is one thing I've learned in life, it's that people don't know why they do many (or even any) of the things they do. They do them for reasons unknown to themselves, and then afterward, supposing there is demand, they fabricate reasons. Not lies necessarily, more like their "best guess" as to why they did it.

When the judge asks the teenager why he microwaved a live hamster and the teenager says "I don't know" he's not only being honest but actually insightful. And because society demands reasons for every action, most children soon learn that "I don't know" is an unacceptable answer.

So no, I don't believe what comes out of ISIS's mouth(s) regarding why they do these things.

I'm not sure why you do either, and it's a fact that neither do you.

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#54

Post by forrestthewoods » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 9:03 PM UTC

criley2 wrote: post #42

nateberkopec wrote: post #29

I don't understand why we shouldn't believe what's coming straight out of ISIS' mouth. ISIS has said they're killing us because of their interpretation of a book written in the first millennia. They say this every time they attack us. Yet (mostly on the left) we keep coming up with reasons why this isn't the case. "No, actually, you're not attacking us for that reason, really it's our fault because we gave the oil to…

"I don't understand why we shouldn't believe what's coming straight out of ISIS' mouth." Because they're proven masters at propaganda and messaging. To take prop at face value is the definition of naive. "ISIS has said they're killing us because of their interpretation of a book written in the first millennia." That's their justification for their actions, not the reason. Come on. Recruiting for ISIS pays $5000 - $10…

Ah. People are in poverty and to get out of poverty they blow themselves up in a public place such that they can murder a bunch of innocent civilians in the process. Got it. Good to know.

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#55

Post by archgoon » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 9:03 PM UTC

Bud wrote: post #32

archgoon wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that the main problem with the theory is that there are plenty of places where there is high income inequality (such as the United States, as indicated by the diagram) and something like ISIS seems rather unlikely† . Sure, you can say that inequality may have contributed to the issue, but there are a ton of factors that have resulted in Syria being plunged in Civil War. Pointing to any one as a decisive fac…

archgoon: We have had extremely frequent domestic terror incidents in the US recently which can be readily linked to religious and political extremism, notably the Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood shootings.

To me, there is a mild quantitative difference between a civil war with a death count in the hundreds of thousands and millions displaced versus a few dozen killed every year.

I don't see anywhere in Piketty's theory a place to plug in "Amount of Inequality" and expected number of deaths.

I'd like to see a regression plot at least.

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#56

Post by kobayashi » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 9:03 PM UTC

Calling for "far more education" does not at all address the inconvenient facts that education in the Muslim Middle East is illiberal and will not produce the same effects that increased education in a Western environment will. See anything by Will McCants or Shadi Hamid for more info.

This is an economist's view of a non-economic problem.

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#57

Post by Mikeb85 » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 9:04 PM UTC

nostromo wrote: post #19

Bud wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't address his argument at all. Just an ad hominem. Is that because you can't address it? Because his thesis seems quite reasonable to me. And historically, we certainly know that societies with extreme income inequality are less stable than those with more equality.

I'll address the argument. Lots of countries with high income inequality do not have a terrorism problem. When is the last time Brazilians terrorists attacked New York and/or Paris? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_eq...

There's over 50,000 violent deaths per year in Brazil. Not that the Paris attacks weren't bad, but yes, Brazil suffers from violence due to inequality.

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#58

Post by judah » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 9:04 PM UTC

The cause of ISIS is Islamic extremism.

Not income inequality. Not climate change. Islamic extremism.

Those who claim otherwise are merely playing politics to advance political agendas.

Sam Harris, the well-known atheist author and speaker, describes such people well[0]:

"These people are part of what [Muslim reformist] Maajid Nawaz has termed the “regressive Left”—pseudo-liberals who are so blinded by identity politics that they reliably take the side of a backward mob over one of its victims. Rather than protect individual women, apostates, intellectuals, cartoonists, novelists, and true liberals from the intolerance of religious imbeciles, they protect these theocrats from criticism."

To say the problem with ISIS is anything other than Islamic extremism is a red herring. In this case, Piketty has long been advancing his political agenda regarding income inequality. He is merely playing politics here, using the ISIS problem to advance his agenda.

[0]: http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/sam-harris-the-salon-inte...

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#59

Post by bosdev » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 9:04 PM UTC

m0th87 wrote: post #43

Why should this be the "most controversial theory"? Have we already forgotten what triggered the Arab Spring, and consequently the power vacuum that created the IS? The only thing off, as far as I can tell, is the remark that "economic deprivation and the horrors of wars [...] benefited only a select few of the region's residents." I'm not sure if this is the WP mis-reading Piketty, but he makes it pretty clear in Ca…

I think it can be traced well before the Arab Spring, to the (insane) policies of the US government during the invasion of Iraq.

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#60

Post by cjf4 » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 9:04 PM UTC

Paul_S wrote: post #17

Let's call it a contributing factor and make the headline less insane.

Agree, it really distracts from his point when Piketty deliberately ignores the other obvious factors (religoius extremism, tribalism, power vacuums, etc) and fails to integrate it into the quagmire everyone is aware of.