Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012) • Hacker News Board

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#41

Post by cba9 » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 7:36 PM UTC

tosseraccount wrote: post #16

The real paper: http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/royptb/367/15... (the source material about which the article is written )

How pleasantly surprising to see an official link which is the fulltext as well. I'll just quote the abstract to entice people into reading it:

"The anthropological record indicates that approximately 85 per cent of human societies have permitted men to have more than one wife (polygynous marriage), and both empirical and evolutionary considerations suggest that large absolute differences in wealth should favour more polygynous marriages. Yet, monogamous marriage has spread across Europe, and more recently across the globe, even as absolute wealth differences have expanded. Here, we develop and explore the hypothesis that the norms and institutions that compose the modern package of monogamous marriage have been favoured by cultural evolution because of their group-beneficial effects—promoting success in inter-group competition. In suppressing intrasexual competition and reducing the size of the pool of unmarried men, normative monogamy reduces crime rates, including rape, murder, assault, robbery and fraud, as well as decreasing personal abuses. By assuaging the competition for younger brides, normative monogamy decreases (i) the spousal age gap, (ii) fertility, and (iii) gender inequality. By shifting male efforts from seeking wives to paternal investment, normative monogamy increases savings, child investment and economic productivity. By increasing the relatedness within households, normative monogamy reduces intra-household conflict, leading to lower rates of child neglect, abuse, accidental death and homicide. These predictions are tested using converging lines of evidence from across the human sciences."

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#42

Post by in3d » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 7:37 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #15

randyrand wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No exactly the same, but it is becoming more common for women in the United States to have children to multiple different men in quick succession. Definitely a form of polygamy. Particularly of note in poverty stricken communities and the African American community which also happen to have many social problems. Its an interesting theory worth looking more into IMO.

> No exactly the same, but it is becoming more common for women in the United States to have children to multiple different men in quick succession. Its perhaps more visible, but is it really becoming more common? Where are the statistics showing this?

I don't know if randyrand has any statistics to support his statement and I don't see it as very similar to polygamy but http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4182921/ says "Although the sample sizes for parents (especially those with two or more children) at younger ages are quite small and the magnitude of the differences is not large, the pattern nevertheless suggests that MPF (multiple-partner fertility) is likely to increase as younger cohorts age." I haven't seen any better estimates of this possible trend.

59% of African American mothers with two or more children have children by different fathers (http://ns.umich.edu/new/releases/8338-many-us-women-have-chi...).

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#43

Post by littletimmy » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 7:37 PM UTC

marknutter wrote: post #39

littletimmy wrote: post #36

I wonder how this study applies to polyamory cultures like the one ours is becoming, where marriage is weakened as an institution but people take on multiple partners. It is likely that as top men take on more women, we'll run into the same problems that polygamist cultures face.

> It is likely that as top men take on more women, we'll run into the same problems that polygamist cultures face. What about top women taking on more men?

For various reasons (biological and cultural) that seems to happen less often than the reverse. But certainly that would be one way out I suppose.

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#44

Post by Lawtonfogle » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 7:38 PM UTC

marknutter wrote: post #39

littletimmy wrote: post #36

I wonder how this study applies to polyamory cultures like the one ours is becoming, where marriage is weakened as an institution but people take on multiple partners. It is likely that as top men take on more women, we'll run into the same problems that polygamist cultures face.

> It is likely that as top men take on more women, we'll run into the same problems that polygamist cultures face. What about top women taking on more men?

For what ever reason you want to speculate, this doesn't seem to happen to enough of a degree to counter out the extent the reverse is happening.

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#45

Post by bitwize » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 7:38 PM UTC

marknutter wrote: post #39

littletimmy wrote: post #36

I wonder how this study applies to polyamory cultures like the one ours is becoming, where marriage is weakened as an institution but people take on multiple partners. It is likely that as top men take on more women, we'll run into the same problems that polygamist cultures face.

> It is likely that as top men take on more women, we'll run into the same problems that polygamist cultures face. What about top women taking on more men?

Women tend not to "take on" men. They attach themselves to one and fuck others as the opportunity arises.

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#46

Post by gregjwild » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 7:41 PM UTC

I can't help but wonder if this is a case of correlation != causation.

I'm thinking particularly because the focus is on patriarchal, unequal and heavily stratified societies. That makes me wonder if it would make for a different study if it compared with gender neutral polyamorous societies with many-to-many relationships. I'm not aware that such societies exist in socially significant volumes outside of small groupings though. Still, it smacks a little of Eurocentricism.

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#47

Post by Lawtonfogle » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 7:41 PM UTC

marknutter wrote: post #38

beccasanchez wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has nothing to do with gender equality. It has to do with economic inequality between males. Economic inequality between males means more and more women are competing for a smaller supply of wealthy males. Increased demand for top males leads to gender inequality as more and more women compete for a smaller pool of rich men, reducing the bargaining power of every individual woman and increasing the bargaining powe…

> Economic inequality between males means more and more women are competing for a smaller supply of wealthy males. Increased demand for top males leads to gender inequality as more and more women compete for a smaller pool of rich men, reducing the bargaining power of every individual woman and increasing the bargaining power of the few males who are marriage material. I don't see how any of this holds up in today's…

A woman making 10K and a woman making 100K will both face social pressure against dating a guy making 80% of what they do, since the pressure is about the relevant income and not the total income. So this means that the more women make, the bigger this problem becomes because it drives up what is considered a rich enough guy, even if there wasn't the other problem of the wealth gap growing.

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#48

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 7:42 PM UTC

littletimmy wrote: post #36

I wonder how this study applies to polyamory cultures like the one ours is becoming, where marriage is weakened as an institution but people take on multiple partners. It is likely that as top men take on more women, we'll run into the same problems that polygamist cultures face.

[deleted]

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#49

Post by bduerst » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 7:43 PM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #34

Analemma_ wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know that the United States is "moving away from monogamy". I've certainly read more about polygamous relationships lately, but I think that's a consequence of the greater visibility afforded by the Internet, and the decreasing stigmatization of such relationships making people more likely to be open about it. I would want to see some hard evidence before just saying that polygamy is actually increasing in fr…

It does seem to be moving away from, or at least clinging less tightly to, lifelong monogamy and growing more tolerant of serial monogamy.

But that's not evidence of polygyny. Lowered sexual dimorphism in humans suggests we have a long biological history of social monogamy, compared to the dimorphism correlation in socially polygamous mammals.

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#50

Post by Digit-Al » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 7:44 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #26

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the U.S. moving away from monogamy? I'm not against polygamy or polyandry, but I don't see a trend in the near term. On the other hand, we've long had a tradition of traditional married couples where the man keeps a mistress on the side, usually in secret (though secrets don't tend to last very long).

> I'm not against polygamy or polyandry Pedantic, perhaps, but while its generally acceptable to use "polygamy" to mean "polygyny" when you aren't discussing "polyandry" (because virtually all real-world polygamy is polygyny), if you are explicitly discussing both forms, its should be "polygyny and polyandry", "polygamy" includes both. > On the other hand, we've long had a tradition of traditional married couples whe…

Possibly even more pedantic, have you noticed how, even though the authors clearly know the difference between polygyny and polygamy, they seem to somtimes use both terms interchangeably?