Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012) • Hacker News Board

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#31

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 7:23 PM UTC

randyrand wrote: post #11

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the U.S. moving away from monogamy? I'm not against polygamy or polyandry, but I don't see a trend in the near term. On the other hand, we've long had a tradition of traditional married couples where the man keeps a mistress on the side, usually in secret (though secrets don't tend to last very long).

No exactly the same, but it is becoming more common for women in the United States to have children to multiple different men in quick succession. Definitely a form of polygamy. Particularly of note in poverty stricken communities and the African American community which also happen to have many social problems. Its an interesting theory worth looking more into IMO.

> No exactly the same, but it is becoming more common for women in the United States to have children to multiple different men in quick succession. Definitely a form of polygamy.

While sometimes people refer to "serial polygamy", and there are some contexts where its actually reasonable to view that as a kind of polygamy, here, where the focus is on formal, recognized marriage structures and whether men have the opportunity to enter into them, it isn't the kind of polygamy that is at issue, both:

(1) because its not a formal, recognized marriage structure, and (2) because even if it were, it would be polyandrous, and the paper is comparing polygyny (not "polygamy" more generally) to monogamy, so this would be driving past monogamy on to the opposite side, if it were relevant at all.

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#32

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 7:27 PM UTC

FD3SA wrote: post #13

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the U.S. moving away from monogamy? I'm not against polygamy or polyandry, but I don't see a trend in the near term. On the other hand, we've long had a tradition of traditional married couples where the man keeps a mistress on the side, usually in secret (though secrets don't tend to last very long).

Yes, it is. Marriage rates are at an all time low, divorce rates are at an all time high, never married rate is at an all time high, out of wedlock births are at an all time high, and there is no deterrent for adultery. The west has been in a soft-polygamy system since no-fault divorce was instigated. The only reason the illusion of classical marriage limps on is because the vestiges of the old system, mainly the ide…

[deleted]

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#33

Post by CrimsnBlade » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 7:27 PM UTC

>Our goal was to understand why monogamous marriage has become standard in most developed nations in recent centuries, when most recorded cultures have practiced polygyny

I had no idea that the majority of older cultures practiced this. I'm no history buff either though. Still, that's very surprising to me for some reason.

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#34

Post by sliverstorm » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 7:30 PM UTC

Analemma_ wrote: post #12

Camillo wrote: post #6

Would the authors venture to make a prediction on what will happen as the US moves away from monogamy? Edit: I'm not talking about moving towards poligamy. I'm talking about moving away from monogamous marriage in general. To quote from the article: According to Henrich, monogamy’s main cultural evolutionary advantage over polygyny is the more egalitarian distribution of women, which reduces male competition and soci…

I don't know that the United States is "moving away from monogamy". I've certainly read more about polygamous relationships lately, but I think that's a consequence of the greater visibility afforded by the Internet, and the decreasing stigmatization of such relationships making people more likely to be open about it. I would want to see some hard evidence before just saying that polygamy is actually increasing in fr…

It does seem to be moving away from, or at least clinging less tightly to, lifelong monogamy and growing more tolerant of serial monogamy.

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#35

Post by creshal » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 7:32 PM UTC

CrimsnBlade wrote: post #33

>Our goal was to understand why monogamous marriage has become standard in most developed nations in recent centuries, when most recorded cultures have practiced polygyny I had no idea that the majority of older cultures practiced this. I'm no history buff either though. Still, that's very surprising to me for some reason.

Concubinage, harems and the like were quite common.

The reverse, polyandry, also saw occasional practice, like in pre- and early Islamic Iran.

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#36

Post by littletimmy » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 7:33 PM UTC

I wonder how this study applies to polyamory cultures like the one ours is becoming, where marriage is weakened as an institution but people take on multiple partners. It is likely that as top men take on more women, we'll run into the same problems that polygamist cultures face.

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#37

Post by danharaj » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 7:34 PM UTC

Note that this is not a comparison between monogamy and polyamory, where the bonding relationship is many-to-many, not one-to-one or one-to-many.

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#38

Post by marknutter » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 7:35 PM UTC

beccasanchez wrote: post #10

RyanRies wrote: post #4

How do we know which one is the cause and which one is the effect? Or that it's not just yet another case of correlation mistaken for causation? Do more intense levels of gender inequality lead to polygamous marriage, or does polygamous marriage lead to more intense levels of gender inequality?

It has nothing to do with gender equality. It has to do with economic inequality between males. Economic inequality between males means more and more women are competing for a smaller supply of wealthy males. Increased demand for top males leads to gender inequality as more and more women compete for a smaller pool of rich men, reducing the bargaining power of every individual woman and increasing the bargaining powe…

> Economic inequality between males means more and more women are competing for a smaller supply of wealthy males. Increased demand for top males leads to gender inequality as more and more women compete for a smaller pool of rich men, reducing the bargaining power of every individual woman and increasing the bargaining power of the few males who are marriage material.

I don't see how any of this holds up in today's society where women are earning just as much as men, and in some relationships, more.

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#39

Post by marknutter » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 7:35 PM UTC

littletimmy wrote: post #36

I wonder how this study applies to polyamory cultures like the one ours is becoming, where marriage is weakened as an institution but people take on multiple partners. It is likely that as top men take on more women, we'll run into the same problems that polygamist cultures face.

> It is likely that as top men take on more women, we'll run into the same problems that polygamist cultures face.

What about top women taking on more men?

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#40

Post by venomsnake » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 7:36 PM UTC

flubert wrote: post #30

venomsnake wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the black males spend their time in prison - you have serious competition for the ones that are out. It is not polygamy/andry, it is an act of desperation on the women's side to have any kind of economic support. When the social net is thin or unexistent - even if it means risking to have another kid. Add to the fact that poor people are the most restricted with their access to contraception and abortion. And yo…

But which is the cause, and which is the effect? Could it be that welfare benefits have reduced the necessity for a woman to hold on to a man for financial support, so these men are now "adrift" and more likely to end up incarcerated? It might be interesting to look at welfare benefits and incarceration rates before and after 1964.

The benefits are not the problem - you have a lot more generous benefits in Western Europe and UK and still they have lower incarceration rates than US. If they were the cause - the problem in Europe will be a lot worse.

It is the other way around - remove the jobs from a community, men turn to crime - initiate "War on drugs" - and you have a positive loopback mechanism. That is multi generational.