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Software Developers’ Growing Elitism Problem

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Re: Software Developers’ Growing Elitism Problem

#41

Post by sklogic »

LukeB_UK wrote: post #25
akiselev wrote: post #20

What a clickbait, provocative article with nothing beyond a single anecdote, not even a second one other than the generic "you've never written assembly so you're not a programmer" comment. Seriously has anyone heard a programmer say this in the last 10 years? Elitism exists everywhere and I don't see how software development is any better or worse than the rest. We have an arrogant vocal minority just like everyone…

Almost every time a PHP or JavaScript project is brought up here, the fact that it's written in PHP or JavaScript is always used to negatively comment on the project and author. Just because someone doesn't like a language, they see fit to demean the author. Edit: Even better, someone has already done that in the comments here on HN for this article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10637947

Swap the meaningless "real programmer" to a much better defined "efficient programmer", and all the seemingly "elitist" comments will start to make a lot of sense.

Re: Software Developers’ Growing Elitism Problem

#42

Post by crdoconnor »

akiselev wrote: post #20

What a clickbait, provocative article with nothing beyond a single anecdote, not even a second one other than the generic "you've never written assembly so you're not a programmer" comment. Seriously has anyone heard a programmer say this in the last 10 years? Elitism exists everywhere and I don't see how software development is any better or worse than the rest. We have an arrogant vocal minority just like everyone…

>BAM. 'nuff said. Why bring elitism into this?

I guess because the author feels insecure about the accusations leveled against his company - that they toss out underqualified developers.

He wants it to be made clear that his type of elitism (running a big important software company) trumps your kind of elitism (knowing all about pointers, assembly, big O notation and data structures).

Something like that anyway :/

Re: Software Developers’ Growing Elitism Problem

#43

Post by TeMPOraL »

akiselev wrote: post #30
LukeB_UK wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost every time a PHP or JavaScript project is brought up here, the fact that it's written in PHP or JavaScript is always used to negatively comment on the project and author. Just because someone doesn't like a language, they see fit to demean the author. Edit: Even better, someone has already done that in the comments here on HN for this article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10637947

You're commiting the same exact mistake the article is. This is the vocal minority who is, you know, vocal and unrepresentative of all software developers, the majority of whom have little to say about the religious battles on online forums and don't give a damn about programming except to feed their families. If you want an example of a real problem of elitism go look at the metastudies on narcissism, which talk abo…

> at the metastudies on narcissism, which talk about how the selection process for surgeons (brain surgeons especially) tends to select for egomaniacs and results in a very politically charged industry

Are there any surprising findings there, or is it just what you could reasonably expect after putting people through 10+ years of life-sucking training, deep in debt, to work on the most complicated thing humans ever had to deal with - but under time pressure and tremendous emotional load?

Re: Software Developers’ Growing Elitism Problem

#44

Post by mycroft-holmes »

crdoconnor wrote: post #40
mycroft-holmes wrote: post #2

> According to a recent study by Course Report, 36 percent of academy attendees are female, and women who graduate from academies actually earn higher average salaries than men. Can we please put to rest that women can't make it in this industry?

The "not enough women in tech" thing is driven by tech CEO donations, I think (over the last 3-4 years anyway). That's why those articles about it and institutions keep popping far more often. It seems to be working, too. I'll not posit why tech CEOs might be trying to drive a flood of new developers into the industry... I'll get accused of being elitist :)

Seriously? Do you have any sources for this?

Re: Software Developers’ Growing Elitism Problem

#45

Post by mycroft-holmes »

headcanon wrote: post #36
mycroft-holmes wrote: post #2

> According to a recent study by Course Report, 36 percent of academy attendees are female, and women who graduate from academies actually earn higher average salaries than men. Can we please put to rest that women can't make it in this industry?

Can we not make this a gender discussion?

I'm commenting on specifics within the posted article. This is very common behavior on HN.

Re: Software Developers’ Growing Elitism Problem

#46

Post by TeMPOraL »

onion2k wrote: post #9
mycroft-holmes wrote: post #2

> According to a recent study by Course Report, 36 percent of academy attendees are female, and women who graduate from academies actually earn higher average salaries than men. Can we please put to rest that women can't make it in this industry?

The number of women in the software industry when they join it might be roughly equal to the number of men, and their salaries might well be higher, but after a few years a lot of the women have left. That's the problem. The industry is set up in a way that isn't inclusive, doesn't treat people equally, and in a lot of cases is actively anti-women because hiring practises don't deal with things like pregnancy well en…

> The number of women in the software industry when they join it might be roughly equal to the number of men, and their salaries might well be higher, but after a few years a lot of the women have left.

Note: we've just shifted the goalpost from "women don't join the industry because its misogynist and elitist" - as it used to be for the past year or two with those discussions - to "women join the industry about just as men do, but later (5-20 years!) leave because industry is misogynist and elitist".

Also note: women are being paid more on average.

Ok, so feminists have won, right? Can we stop with the gender threads before people realize that:

> I doubt they're being paid more because they're better - developer quality isn't related to gender as far as I know.

literally means men are being victims of sexism in the field?

Re: Software Developers’ Growing Elitism Problem

#47

Post by tzs »

> We should not stratify programmers into classes. A flood of newcomers into many related yet very different programming careers should be welcomed and encouraged. Code is a medium to solve problems, and we should applaud when we see so many novices eager to find tools to solve problems.

Why can't we do both? Applaud when people reach a new level of skill (including entry level) and recognize that there are still levels beyond that which we can encourage them to strive for?

Re: Software Developers’ Growing Elitism Problem

#48

Post by wwzuk »

onion2k wrote: post #9
mycroft-holmes wrote: post #2

> According to a recent study by Course Report, 36 percent of academy attendees are female, and women who graduate from academies actually earn higher average salaries than men. Can we please put to rest that women can't make it in this industry?

The number of women in the software industry when they join it might be roughly equal to the number of men, and their salaries might well be higher, but after a few years a lot of the women have left. That's the problem. The industry is set up in a way that isn't inclusive, doesn't treat people equally, and in a lot of cases is actively anti-women because hiring practises don't deal with things like pregnancy well en…

Whenever I see these sort of topics discussed, I rhetorically think: why is there no initiatives to make careers like HR, veterinary work and other areas more inclusive.

Both genders have strengths and weaknesses due to their biological and genetic differences, so it's only natural for one side to dominate certain fields.

Pushing equality to the point of progressive politics is just going to harm people. They won't be able to get into careers that they are naturally good at, for example, because it's no longer fashionable to hire them.

Re: Software Developers’ Growing Elitism Problem

#49

Post by TeMPOraL »

wwzuk wrote: post #48
onion2k wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number of women in the software industry when they join it might be roughly equal to the number of men, and their salaries might well be higher, but after a few years a lot of the women have left. That's the problem. The industry is set up in a way that isn't inclusive, doesn't treat people equally, and in a lot of cases is actively anti-women because hiring practises don't deal with things like pregnancy well en…

Whenever I see these sort of topics discussed, I rhetorically think: why is there no initiatives to make careers like HR, veterinary work and other areas more inclusive. Both genders have strengths and weaknesses due to their biological and genetic differences, so it's only natural for one side to dominate certain fields. Pushing equality to the point of progressive politics is just going to harm people. They won't b…

> Whenever I see these sort of topics discussed, I rhetorically think: why is there no initiatives to make careers like HR, veterinary work and other areas more inclusive.

The answer I believe is actually quite simple: because IT is a hot field, HR is not. HR is "just a job", while IT is now recognized as easy money - you just have to spend few months learning how to bang on your keyboard, and you're off to be a next Zuckerberg or at least to be earning in your first year more than 50% of the population of your country. When the supply finally catches up with demand and average wages go down, I expect IT will be just like medicine or law - boring to talk about.

Re: Software Developers’ Growing Elitism Problem

#50

Post by tzs »

Here are all the sentences where the author talks about people using the term "real" programmer:

> I wasn’t a “real” programmer yet, according to them, because I hadn’t learned how to write assembly code.

> They are essentially told that if they didn’t learn code for the express purpose of loving the most obtuse and bizarre aspects of a language, then they are not “real” programmers.

> Is one discipline better than the other? Is a front-end developer not a “real” developer if she can’t describe what a bubble sort is or does?

I mostly agree that it is wrong to say that people are not "real" programmers if they don't know assembly or don't love the most obtuse and bizarre language aspects or only do front end and are deficient in theory. Saying they are not "real" implies they are "fake", and there is nothing fake about simply being narrowly focused.

There's an interesting word that "real" can be replaced with that makes the sentiment in those sentences much more reasonable: "master".

I'd say that a "master" programmer should know assembly [1] and should have more experience than just front end development and should know a decent amount of theory. I wouldn't say that a "master" programmer has to be motivated by love for obtuse and bizarre language features, though...but I would say that a "master" programmer should know of those features and when to use them and when not to.

I wonder how many people who use the term "real programmer" are using it in the demeaning sense, and how many are using it in the sense of "master programmer"? I'm going to try to be careful to say "master programmer" in the future so as to not inadvertently put someone down by using "real programmer" (although I'm not sure I've ever actually used "real programmer" other than in obvious joking contexts).

[1] I wouldn't say they need to be able to actually write assembly, though. They just need to be familiar with what goes on at that level so that they can better understand what goes on with their code when it is compiled.

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