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Software Developers’ Growing Elitism Problem

techcrunch.com

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Re: Software Developers’ Growing Elitism Problem

#31

Post by HillRat »

alextgordon wrote: post #17

> I remember being laughed at when I told more experienced colleagues in 2004 that the only programming language I knew was JavaScript. I wasn’t a “real” programmer yet, according to them, because I hadn’t learned how to write assembly code. And they'd be right. You're not a real programmer until you understand how the machine functions. This is usually achieved by learning a low-level language like C, Pascal, Fortra…

I would, in fact, argue that computer science is in fact deeply anti-elitist; there are no formal barriers to entry, the discipline has no hidden knowledge, there are no licensing and accreditation requirements. Difficult is not the same as elitist, and it's an abuse of the language to conflate the two.

As a rejoinder to the author, I would say that one can be a programmer and only know JavaScript, but one should not be a programmer and wish to only know JavaScript. Go ye forth and read some Wirth!

Re: Software Developers’ Growing Elitism Problem

#33

Post by ocfx »

LukeB_UK wrote: post #25
akiselev wrote: post #20

What a clickbait, provocative article with nothing beyond a single anecdote, not even a second one other than the generic "you've never written assembly so you're not a programmer" comment. Seriously has anyone heard a programmer say this in the last 10 years? Elitism exists everywhere and I don't see how software development is any better or worse than the rest. We have an arrogant vocal minority just like everyone…

Almost every time a PHP or JavaScript project is brought up here, the fact that it's written in PHP or JavaScript is always used to negatively comment on the project and author. Just because someone doesn't like a language, they see fit to demean the author. Edit: Even better, someone has already done that in the comments here on HN for this article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10637947

I think people can write good code in PHP and JS and I think those standards for what is "good" have been elevated a lot in the past 5 years. PHP and JS still seem to carry this tarnished reputation with a lot of people and so many (especially in IRC) immediately discredit it with some hyperbole. Yeah both languages have their shortcomings, but there are so many patterns in place to use that can make the code well structured, perform well, maintain well, etc. If there is one thing that drives me up the wall a bit, it's people who go on sites like this one and internalize all the PHP and JS hate without hardly ever using them. By the time they have to at some point they already hate it so much that any part of the language that is "different" is now a negative quality.

Re: Software Developers’ Growing Elitism Problem

#34

Post by crdoconnor »

There's a certain degree of irony in a man who pens an article to complain about elitism in his industry who bakes his social climbing right into his title ("engineer turned founder-CEO").

"Elitism grows out of arrogance mixed with insecurity. Elitists aren’t interested in sharing knowledge, they’re interested in being the source of the knowledge. Elitists are only interested in disseminating their knowledge to the larger population if they are the authority."

Like, say, if they're the engineer-turned-founder-turned-CEO of a coding academy for instance?

Re: Software Developers’ Growing Elitism Problem

#35

Post by crdoconnor »

HillaryBriss wrote: post #18

When a technical interview happens, two (of many) competing motivations arise within the programmer who interviews a candidate: 1. I don't want my company to hire someone smarter than I am -- eventually they'll make me look bad and I'll be relegated to uninteresting work or made redundant. (Also, that person will end up condescending to me and that's simply not allowed; I'm the only genius in the village...) 2. I don…

>Now, maybe this is wrong, but it seems that situation #2 arises a lot more often than situation #1.

It will always seem less common because #1 is always disguised with bullshit. "Bad cultural fit" or whatever.

#2 is never disguised.

Re: Software Developers’ Growing Elitism Problem

#36

Post by headcanon »

mycroft-holmes wrote: post #2

> According to a recent study by Course Report, 36 percent of academy attendees are female, and women who graduate from academies actually earn higher average salaries than men. Can we please put to rest that women can't make it in this industry?

Can we not make this a gender discussion?

Re: Software Developers’ Growing Elitism Problem

#37

Post by npsimons »

Amezarak wrote: post #12

> But they’re solving a very real and important problem, and they’ll get better at it. Yes. The "very real and important problem" is not what we're supposed to think it is - diversity - but it is real nonetheless. The "very real and important problem" is that capital hates high labor costs, and needs to find a way to slow or stop the rise in developer salaries. All these articles about the terrible, terrible shortage…

> But it is always disappointing to see how much of the apologia is supported by tech workers themselves.

It's insane how quickly we forget history, even our own internal history, in this industry. Just as a small unrelated example, take the monopolistic cases of IBM, followed by Microsoft, followed by Apple. I've often wondered if it's a cost of the rapid pace of development of technological power, or just that the industry is still so (relatively) young.

Re: Software Developers’ Growing Elitism Problem

#38

Post by sklogic »

RickS wrote: post #8
sklogic wrote: post #5

> We should not stratify construction workers into classes. Of course. Any crane operator can be easily swapped for a forklift driver. When the latter are in shortage too, replace them with the bricklayers.

Your analogy is a good one for types of programmers - that disciplines of construction/software worker are not interchangeable (though lots of crane drivers can also drive a forklift). It misses the point of the article though. The article is tired of people saying "forklift driver's aren't real construction workers"... which sounds pretty silly. I think very few of us drive past a construction zone and question the…

It is not silly. There is no such a profession as "programmer" (and I believe that this "profession" should have never existed in the first place).

There are many very different professions. It is not silly to say that "a midwife is not a real dentist" (and the other way around).

Re: Software Developers’ Growing Elitism Problem

#39

Post by npsimons »

FatalBaboon wrote: post #29
akiselev wrote: post #20

What a clickbait, provocative article with nothing beyond a single anecdote, not even a second one other than the generic "you've never written assembly so you're not a programmer" comment. Seriously has anyone heard a programmer say this in the last 10 years? Elitism exists everywhere and I don't see how software development is any better or worse than the rest. We have an arrogant vocal minority just like everyone…

Not only this, but in the conclusion you get this pearl: "learning on your own is neither efficient nor cost-effective when factoring in time spent." And now everybody learns the same way? I can tell you that for a self-taught person, learning by yourself is much faster and deeper than being taught by someone.

> "learning on your own is neither efficient nor cost-effective when factoring in time spent."

Tell that to John Carmack.

Re: Software Developers’ Growing Elitism Problem

#40

Post by crdoconnor »

mycroft-holmes wrote: post #2

> According to a recent study by Course Report, 36 percent of academy attendees are female, and women who graduate from academies actually earn higher average salaries than men. Can we please put to rest that women can't make it in this industry?

The "not enough women in tech" thing is driven by tech CEO donations, I think (over the last 3-4 years anyway). That's why those articles about it and institutions keep popping far more often.

It seems to be working, too.

I'll not posit why tech CEOs might be trying to drive a flood of new developers into the industry... I'll get accused of being elitist :)

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