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Software Developers’ Growing Elitism Problem

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21–30 of 54 posts

Re: Software Developers’ Growing Elitism Problem

#21
It might have been an effective thesis if it didn't start off by defending coding academies. I think it's a given today that your ability to do the job trumps your ability to generate credentials for the job, but stripping specialized developers is setting yourself up for failure. Also, in many cases it makes sense to have at least someone on the team with some academic exposure to specific problem domains. Most people can write some code to accomplish the task, some people can be clever about it, but sometimes you also need people who can refer back to their classes so they can either write some performance critical code, solve a hard math problem, or assess the engineering design decisions from a more trained perspective -- especially in an industry dominated by egos, is ego + lack of specialized knowledge always the best approach? Certainly it gets stuff done. Also, as devs get older (years more experience picking up specialized knowledge along the way), this problem can obviously be mitigated.

Edit: to be fair, I mean stratification is appropriate at a project level of organization level, clearly you should be pigeonholed.

Re: Software Developers’ Growing Elitism Problem

#22

>Is a front-end developer not a “real” developer if she can’t describe what a bubble sort is or does? Yes. Being able to accomplish one specific thing in a field, does not make you skilled in that trade. It makes you skilled at doing that specific thing. A farrier is not a blacksmith. A blacksmith would probably know how to forge a horseshoe but find it difficult to actually shoe the horse. They are not really in the…

Software development is my profession, and I welcome everyone and anyone willing to learn. Trying to hold onto it like it's some sort of exclusive club is ridiculous and childish.

Re: Software Developers’ Growing Elitism Problem

#23
I think the elitism problem is with people in the technology media specifically like the person who wrote this drivel. What companies are being mean by telling the truth about a 6 week 'boot camp' that will make a liberal arts major code like linus torvalds? Maybe theres a shred of truth to that... as someone else said, should we have medical bootcamps for open heart surgery? How about for flying airplanes? Or designing boeing engines? Good idea or would that not be adequate? I think people see magic around computers and somehow think its "simple and easy" to code if you just learn a few key phrase as if it were a spanish course or something. We know otherwise.

Re: Software Developers’ Growing Elitism Problem

#24
Instead of proving the thesis, the article merely describes what elitism is. Ironically, this definition proves that programming is probably the least elitist field there is.

> Elitists aren’t interested in sharing knowledge, they’re interested in being the source of the knowledge.

Compare how easy it is to learn programming on the web to any other profession. Oh! And you can use only content that was created by professional programmers in their spare time (SO answers, forum posts, RTFMs and FAQs, all the free software), without actually using any content that was created by people who were paid for that (all the code academies) — and still learn pretty much everything.

> these novices have access to tools and shortcuts that the elitist never had

I don't think a lot of programmers actually think like that. I've never seen a programmer who declared that "if you never wrote a compiler, you're not a true programmer". This actually seems like a ridiculous strawman.

But regardless if you like it or not, there are "real" and "not-real" programmers, yes. Unfortunately, "not-real" programmers can actually have titles like "Lead Developer" and even "IT Director", but not be able to solve a FizzBuzz problem in a way that doesn't make hair stand up on your head. And for some reason, the quality of writing good code is correlated with such things as "learning programming for it's own merit", or "getting a CS degree from a good school", or "having a good understanding of mathematical logic and set theory".

(Once again, I have to repeat myself: _correlation_. If you decide that I'm saying that people without CS degrees aren't real programmers, it means that you don't know how to understand what you read).

So, I would never say that "coding academies are nonsense". Any loud, non-compromising statement of this kind is anti-intellectual and most of the time blatantly false. Even the concept of "realness" of a programmer as a binary trait is already oversimplified. But scepticism that IT professionals have about code academy graduates has a very serious root in reality.

It's not about being "threatened". It's about maintaining bad programmer's code.

Re: Software Developers’ Growing Elitism Problem

#25

What a clickbait, provocative article with nothing beyond a single anecdote, not even a second one other than the generic "you've never written assembly so you're not a programmer" comment. Seriously has anyone heard a programmer say this in the last 10 years? Elitism exists everywhere and I don't see how software development is any better or worse than the rest. We have an arrogant vocal minority just like everyone…

Almost every time a PHP or JavaScript project is brought up here, the fact that it's written in PHP or JavaScript is always used to negatively comment on the project and author. Just because someone doesn't like a language, they see fit to demean the author.

Edit: Even better, someone has already done that in the comments here on HN for this article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10637947

Re: Software Developers’ Growing Elitism Problem

#26
post #8
post #5

> We should not stratify construction workers into classes. Of course. Any crane operator can be easily swapped for a forklift driver. When the latter are in shortage too, replace them with the bricklayers.

Your analogy is a good one for types of programmers - that disciplines of construction/software worker are not interchangeable (though lots of crane drivers can also drive a forklift). It misses the point of the article though. The article is tired of people saying "forklift driver's aren't real construction workers"... which sounds pretty silly. I think very few of us drive past a construction zone and question the…

But surely it would not be so weird to "stratify" electricians and signalers (people who turn signs).

Both do "construction", but the difference in skill and market supply/demand.

Re: Software Developers’ Growing Elitism Problem

#28

What a clickbait, provocative article with nothing beyond a single anecdote, not even a second one other than the generic "you've never written assembly so you're not a programmer" comment. Seriously has anyone heard a programmer say this in the last 10 years? Elitism exists everywhere and I don't see how software development is any better or worse than the rest. We have an arrogant vocal minority just like everyone…

Almost every time a PHP or JavaScript project is brought up here, the fact that it's written in PHP or JavaScript is always used to negatively comment on the project and author. Just because someone doesn't like a language, they see fit to demean the author. Edit: Even better, someone has already done that in the comments here on HN for this article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10637947

It is extremely hard to maintain good and safe codebase in both languages. Which is important when you make code that other people use. Above couple of hundred lines of code you need either some form of type safety or very talented and disciplined programmers.

Re: Software Developers’ Growing Elitism Problem

#29

What a clickbait, provocative article with nothing beyond a single anecdote, not even a second one other than the generic "you've never written assembly so you're not a programmer" comment. Seriously has anyone heard a programmer say this in the last 10 years? Elitism exists everywhere and I don't see how software development is any better or worse than the rest. We have an arrogant vocal minority just like everyone…

Not only this, but in the conclusion you get this pearl: "learning on your own is neither efficient nor cost-effective when factoring in time spent."

And now everybody learns the same way?

I can tell you that for a self-taught person, learning by yourself is much faster and deeper than being taught by someone.

Re: Software Developers’ Growing Elitism Problem

#30

What a clickbait, provocative article with nothing beyond a single anecdote, not even a second one other than the generic "you've never written assembly so you're not a programmer" comment. Seriously has anyone heard a programmer say this in the last 10 years? Elitism exists everywhere and I don't see how software development is any better or worse than the rest. We have an arrogant vocal minority just like everyone…

Almost every time a PHP or JavaScript project is brought up here, the fact that it's written in PHP or JavaScript is always used to negatively comment on the project and author. Just because someone doesn't like a language, they see fit to demean the author. Edit: Even better, someone has already done that in the comments here on HN for this article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10637947

You're commiting the same exact mistake the article is. This is the vocal minority who is, you know, vocal and unrepresentative of all software developers, the majority of whom have little to say about the religious battles on online forums and don't give a damn about programming except to feed their families.

If you want an example of a real problem of elitism go look at the metastudies on narcissism, which talk about how the selection process for surgeons (brain surgeons especially) tends to select for egomaniacs and results in a very politically charged industry.

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