Support for older versions of Internet Explorer ends on January 12, 2016 • Hacker News Board

Re: Support for older versions of Internet Explorer ends on January 12, 2016

#161

Post by kbenson » Thu, Nov 26, 2015, 12:58 AM UTC

orionblastar wrote: post #159

kbenson wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Javascript has a standard (or more accurately, current javascript is the implementation of a version of the standard). It's a much safer bet that either there will be backwards compatible implementations later or that you will have other options. To my knowlesde, IE's feature set was always "what's supported by the current release". It's sort of like having a codebase which you can't change which makes use of a bunch…

Even back in 1997 JavaScript worked differently based on what OS and web browser you had. I had open sourced this script to detect the OS and web browser so that it would run JavaScript code using if statements for each platform to solve compatibility problems. It should still work today but the ActiveX detection is broken because of the way JavaScript changed. http://www.javascriptsource.com/repository/javascripts/2…

I understand there were plenty of non-standard features, but keeping to standard features should have been possible, and JS didn't change that much between browser versions (and where it did fixed could be implemented, as your detection script would have helped with).

It took quite a while for some standard JS features to be added[1], but a mostly stable subset was possible (as evidenced by the sites that worked in all the major browsers of the time). The real problem was companies not wanting to devote the time to doing this and taking the shortcut of using the non-standard IE features MS had included at the expense of browser interoperability (which would have provided some protection against using features that would be dropped).

1: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/s4esdbwz(v=vs.94).a...

Re: Support for older versions of Internet Explorer ends on January 12, 2016

#162

Post by l1ambda » Thu, Nov 26, 2015, 1:30 AM UTC

mkozlows wrote: post #144

jvehent wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft not supporting older IE doesn't mean front-end people won't have to if their sites have users who don't upgrade. It just means Microsoft can't be bothered to ship patches for those older browsers.

Everyone using a browser that doesn't get security patches is basically a walking malware farm. Not supporting them with your site and pushing them to upgrade is the moral high ground.

This. In fact by supporting those browsers on your website, you're in effect complicit in allowing malware to hijack those users' logins.

Re: Support for older versions of Internet Explorer ends on January 12, 2016

#163

Post by orionblastar » Thu, Nov 26, 2015, 3:29 AM UTC

kbenson wrote: post #161

orionblastar wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even back in 1997 JavaScript worked differently based on what OS and web browser you had. I had open sourced this script to detect the OS and web browser so that it would run JavaScript code using if statements for each platform to solve compatibility problems. It should still work today but the ActiveX detection is broken because of the way JavaScript changed. http://www.javascriptsource.com/repository/javascripts/2…

I understand there were plenty of non-standard features, but keeping to standard features should have been possible, and JS didn't change that much between browser versions (and where it did fixed could be implemented, as your detection script would have helped with). It took quite a while for some standard JS features to be added[1], but a mostly stable subset was possible (as evidenced by the sites that worked in a…

The problem with Internet Explorer at the time I worked with it is that it had a version of JavaScript called JScript that ran in the background that had differences with the JavaScript used in Netscape and other web browsers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JScript

In my experience I had to write JavaScript code that detected the OS the web browser type and even the processor so that I could use if statements to run the correct JavaScript code for each platform that worked.

I've been out of it for a decade due to a disability, but I see that Microsoft has updated JScript and has used some form of JavaScript in Windows 8 Apps as well. I never really liked Metro/Modern UI and Windows 10 kind of changed it to Universal Apps.

I like that they have made improvements to JavaScript like Node etc and even run JavaScript in the OS and the backend as well as the frontend.

Re: Support for older versions of Internet Explorer ends on January 12, 2016

#164

Post by orionblastar » Thu, Nov 26, 2015, 4:07 AM UTC

serge2k wrote: post #8

orionblastar wrote: post #6

There are a lot of businesses that use older versions of Windows and use Internet Explorer as their default web browser and use group policy from a Windows Server to prevent the install of a third part web browser. Forcing everyone to use IE. They will be vulnerable to attacks because of this and they will refuse to pay money to upgrade from XP or Vista to go to Windows 10. It will be because their business software…

If you aren't willing to invest in maintaining your infrastructure then it will start to fail.

I agree but I still know businesses that use Windows 95 machines and Wordperfect 6.0 for their business stuff.

I know a lot of businesses still use DOS or OS/2 and very old PCs because they don't trust Windows.

I would get offers to volunteer for non-profits that still use old PCs with older operating systems on them and they need help fixing them or maintaining them.

There are a lot of third world nations using old surplus PCs because they cannot afford anything else. So they get our leftovers.

For example in Thailand they still use Windows XP, a pirated version but they put it on every PC. They have a skin for it that looks like Vista but it is still XP SP3. A copy of legit Windows is too expensive so they used the pirated XP because they can buy it on the streets for $1 due to a lax copyright law.

Re: Support for older versions of Internet Explorer ends on January 12, 2016

#165

Post by kbenson » Thu, Nov 26, 2015, 5:29 AM UTC

orionblastar wrote: post #163

kbenson wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand there were plenty of non-standard features, but keeping to standard features should have been possible, and JS didn't change that much between browser versions (and where it did fixed could be implemented, as your detection script would have helped with). It took quite a while for some standard JS features to be added[1], but a mostly stable subset was possible (as evidenced by the sites that worked in a…

The problem with Internet Explorer at the time I worked with it is that it had a version of JavaScript called JScript that ran in the background that had differences with the JavaScript used in Netscape and other web browsers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JScript In my experience I had to write JavaScript code that detected the OS the web browser type and even the processor so that I could use if statements to run t…

Yeah, I'm familiar with jscript, and have used it in the past. You should check out the "Comparison to Javascript"[1] section of that article. JScript was just MS's way to get around Sun and the trademark issue. In a lot of ways, it's the same as Google and Dalvik compared to Java. Same language, different name to get around legal issues.

Now, I know MS's version of javascript (JScript) had it's own quirks and issues (such as no trailing comma allowed in objects and array syntax), but it shouldn't have been too hard with a minimum of testing to make sure it worked on both IE and Netscape and/or Firebird (before it was renamed to Firefox). The problem is that many didn't both at all, and didn't even attempt to figure out which bits that they used were standard parts of Javascript or the ECMAScript standard and what were MS extensions.

That said, there was a major benefit to people forging ahead with MS specific extensions. The wide acceptance and update of XMLHttpRequest was spurred by MS's introduction of that type of call through custom ActiveX objects[2].

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JScript#Comparison_to_JavaScri...

2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XMLHttpRequest#Support_in_Inte...

Re: Support for older versions of Internet Explorer ends on January 12, 2016

#166

Post by kyberias » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 6:42 PM UTC

WorldMaker wrote: post #155

kyberias wrote: post #18

Are there any guesses when the support for IE 11 ends? Or when will Microsoft remove IE from Windows? Never?

The impression I get from this site and similar blog posts: IE 11 ends with Windows 10. Edge the Browser isn't classified as a Windows component, to my knowledge, and so also shouldn't classify for "extended support" like IE has in the past. It certainly sounds like the intention is to drop IE entirely once Edge has feature parity and user adoption on its side. (Things are a bit trickier when talking about EdgeHTML t…

Edge cannot have feature parity. For example, it will not support plugins. I don't think they can drop IE from Windows due to enterprise use and LOB applications.

Re: Support for older versions of Internet Explorer ends on January 12, 2016

#167

Post by WorldMaker » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 7:32 PM UTC

kyberias wrote: post #166

WorldMaker wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The impression I get from this site and similar blog posts: IE 11 ends with Windows 10. Edge the Browser isn't classified as a Windows component, to my knowledge, and so also shouldn't classify for "extended support" like IE has in the past. It certainly sounds like the intention is to drop IE entirely once Edge has feature parity and user adoption on its side. (Things are a bit trickier when talking about EdgeHTML t…

Edge cannot have feature parity. For example, it will not support plugins. I don't think they can drop IE from Windows due to enterprise use and LOB applications.

By parity here I do not meant "exact same feature set" or even really "equivalent feature set", but "enough features to get the job done and feel like a real browser". For instance, Chrome-style JS extensions (~plugins) are coming soon enough.

Beyond that, if an enterprise has not gotten the message not to build LOB applications as browser plugins and not to build for one and only one browser model any time since IE6 has been deprecated, then IMNSHO they deserve what they get when IE11 dies as the last "IE". Given the support timeline expected for Windows 10, enterprises have presumably roughly a decade of extended support to adapt before IE dies. Really hope enterprises are paying attention to that (but of course we know a bunch will not and will complain in ten years about lack of support and those of us that got the memo today can proudly mock them then).