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The Yale Problem Begins in High School

heterodoxacademy.org

321–330 of 526 posts

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree completely, and am publicly willing to do so because I'm not willing to live in a future where I can't publicly disagree with someone. Why is it technology, specifically, that needs to be equalized? Because it's currently trendy? Because there's a lot of money in it? Is money all that matters? Why aren't we as interested in getting, say, more men into nursing, considering there a lot of underemployed, undered…

> Why aren't we as interested in getting, say, more men into nursing I take it from this comment that you don't work in nursing or know anyone who does. There is an active movement to get more men into nursing, though I don't follow nursing statistics closely enough to characterize its success.

> I take it from this comment that you don't work in nursing

Correct

> or know anyone who does

Incorrect

> There is an active movement to get more men into nursing, though I don't follow nursing statistics closely enough to characterize its success.

Enlighten me.

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#322

I've taught at two colleges and based on my (purely) anecdotal experiences and attention to the climate, I'd say that the number of students and faculty interested in stifling or censoring ideas is small but also very, very noisy. They also have no sense of humor and college administrators as a group have no sense of humor or perspective, and they're chronically worried about accusations of indifference or insensitiv…

>Edit: Also, almost all of the censorship calls and nasty behavior / comments came from students on the left. Vox's "I'm a liberal professor, and my liberal students terrify me" ( http://www.vox.com/2015/6/3/8706323/college-professor-afraid ) is congruent with my experiences. I've read that article. At least in the article, the only student ever to actually cause trouble in-class was right-wing, and accused the profe…

In the article Haidt makes it clear that he sensed the shift in the academic community and adjusted his patterns of teaching accordingly.

Each example he cites subsequently involve those with a moral liberal or left-leaning set of ideas.

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with "balancing viewpoints" argument is that it isn't based on a critical ethos and so it cannot progress on the basis of logos. You can have a "balanced viewpoint" and still have debates about "whether the moon is made of the body of Vince Foster or not." There are certain ideas that just don't belong in a university setting because they are bunk and this has nothing to do with diversity of opinion. It s…

But in a classroom setting, the students should feel free to debate the composition of the moon. Very quickly, the proposal that the moon is made of Vince Foster would be dismissed as false. This is critical thinking in action. The problem today is that students and faculty are self-censoring. This doesn't expand erudition.

> But in a classroom setting, the students should feel free to debate the composition of the moon.

No, they shouldn't, and I'll follow-up as to why below.

>Very quickly, the proposal that the moon is made of Vince Foster would be dismissed as false. This is critical thinking in action.

Given sufficient rhetorical skill and sufficiently many appeals to "open thought" or "questioning assumptions" or "viewpoint diversity" - in short, various forms of postmodern denial of the external world and the strict rules for reasoning about it - a sufficiently motivated student or professor will manage to make "the moon is made of Vince Foster" the center of attention.

We are living in the same world, with the same academic institutions, which was fooled by the Sokal Hoax, and we are also dealing with the human psychology of social proof, in which giving time and energy to considering an idea in-detail is considered evidence for the idea's truth (rather than evidence for its vagueness or logical complexity).

We cannot allow academia to be consumed with discussions over whether gravity is a social construction, especially not because right-wing partisans feel that only mostly owning the field of economics means that academia is engaged in conspiracy against them.

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eating a burger with shit in it will likely kill you. Should I have said cyanide instead to get the point across? The point is that there are some burgers that are clearly worse than others (use your own imagination if cyanide doesn't work for you), just as there are certain actions that are clearly morally worse than others.

> Should I have said cyanide instead to get the point across? No, you should have used an analogy that actually works.

I can't help it of you don't understand the concept of an analogy. The form of this one is good X:bad X::good Y:bad Y. We're not dealing with GRE-level stuff here.

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But we can all agree that a hamburger with actual shit in it is worse than a hamburger from Smashburger I'm sure that out of the 7 billion people living on our planet, at least one person genuinely likes the taste of shit. To them, this wouldn't necessarily be true (I've never had a Smashburger and I don't like the taste of shit, so I couldn't possibly make this comparison myself). Which is why it's not objectively…

Eating a burger with shit in it will likely kill you. Should I have said cyanide instead to get the point across? The point is that there are some burgers that are clearly worse than others (use your own imagination if cyanide doesn't work for you), just as there are certain actions that are clearly morally worse than others.

> Eating a burger with shit in it will likely kill you.

Preferences for death or risk of death are not exactly unknown, so, while that may be true, it isn't sufficient to establish the universal preference you've offered it to support.

> Should I have said cyanide instead to get the point across?

No, for the same reason. The problem isn't the example, the problem is that the point is wrong; whether or not one believes that an absolute morality exists (in whatever sense of "exists" makes sense for morality), you aren't going to any of its contents through universally-extent preferences, just as you won't for food, because preferences aren't universals.

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a history class that can't make a strong argument that the holocaust wasn't a hoax and a law class that can't make the argument that rape victims exist are in VERY serious trouble. Being able to debunk such looney claims is very valuable for students so they should develop these skills not be shielded from exposure to them.

What about someone who argues "Rape victims don't matter because they are just women, and women's feelings are not important" That isn't something that can be argued against with facts. You can't present evidence to counter this, because they didn't use facts to come to the opinion. As the saying goes, "You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into" There are a certain class of opinion…

>That isn't something that can be argued against with facts.

Oh, and now you want to argue meta-ethics and meta-philosophy :-p?

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#327
post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Edit: Also, almost all of the censorship calls and nasty behavior / comments came from students on the left. Vox's "I'm a liberal professor, and my liberal students terrify me" ( http://www.vox.com/2015/6/3/8706323/college-professor-afraid ) is congruent with my experiences. I've read that article. At least in the article, the only student ever to actually cause trouble in-class was right-wing, and accused the profe…

In the article Haidt makes it clear that he sensed the shift in the academic community and adjusted his patterns of teaching accordingly. Each example he cites subsequently involve those with a moral liberal or left-leaning set of ideas.

I don't see any more subsequent examples. He appears to cite other people who claim to have data showing there's a "social justice problem", but if his citations have such data, he doesn't present it.

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#328

HN suffers from this problem, and I have found it increasing over time. Sometimes I am afraid to upvote certain stories or comments as I fear the hidden moderators can see what people are voting on and punish them accordingly. I know that this is irrational but still those feelings creep in. Every time the hate mob takes someone down professionally and the more ridiculous the circumstances the more people self censor…

Actually, as soon as I saw the original post, I wanted to say exactly what you said. (and actually, I didn't because I know that HN is mostly a politically-correct crowd) HN does suffer from leaning to a 'politically correct' narrative.

As a technologist, I absolutely love debates about (for instance) whether a startup should adopt Scheme or Haskell as a competitive advantage.

But any kind of debate that veers off the liberal politically-correct agenda on HN gets downvoted or hellbanned into oblivion. What you've said is absolutely true: "The silent majority is the biggest political and social problem of our time." HN, despite its enormous contribution to Silicon Valley, is a blue-pill population.

Kudos to you for saying it. The emperor wears no clothes.

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#329
There's nothing wrong with what is being said here. Except that there are just as many "climate" issues that woman and people of color have to face, if not more. This person is cherry-picking discussions about race and gender and saying "it's horrible that climate issues are making it difficult for these white/male students from participating" but the same level of outcry doesn't exist even though in almost every other field you can say the same kind of thing: "it's horrible that climate issues in computer science are making it difficult for these students of color" and the same people are silent.

And I realize I am doing a form of derailing right now, because the matter at hand is white boys being heard. But we're actually talking about white boys being heard during advanced discussions of race and gender. And honestly I feel a little bit the same about it that I feel about girls being heard during advanced discussions of parallel CPU architectures. I wish there were more women who were in those discussions, but I don't think the solution is "just let them participate even if what they say is totally ignorant".

Frankly, most white boys are not skilled enough to participate in discussions about race and gender. It's not that there's anything inherently wrong with them, the pipeline is just letting us down completely. Most of us get almost no education in race and gender, while girls and people of color get it for free just because of their gender or race.

The solution in my mind is the same as the solution to getting more women and other disenfranchised groups into computer science. Everyone just needs to take a little bit of responsibility for the part of the pipeline that's one step upstream from them. You can't just have boys who have never thought about what colonialism actually feels like diving right into university-level gender politics classes. But as a university professor I think you can support summer programs for teenage boys to help them do really basic level gender analysis stuff so that when they do get to college, they can actually participate meaningfully with the girls, and not be seen as second-class citizens just because they have less direct experience.

We shouldn't think of these boys as "bad gender theorists" we need to broaden our understanding of what gender theory is, and make sure we are creating opportunities for disenfranchised novices to get involved.

But this naive affirmative action approach OP is advocating, of "just make sure the boys participate equally" is not taking the problem seriously. Proper affirmative action requires you to get in and take responsibility for your recruitment process and the social issues surrounding it.

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#330
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are certain views that are morally superior to others Whose morals? Back in the 1800's in the South it was generally viewed as moral to have slaves. Was that right?

Secular morals. Owning slaves obviously doesn't pass the test. As a secular person, your main purpose is to live a long healthy life because that's all there is -- secular people don't get brownie points in the afterlife for the bodycount of heathens they've racked up. You will live a longer life if you live in a society of educated people who can do the science to keep you healthy and don't want to kill you (because…

You have no idea what secular means do you? Admit it. The Eastern Bloc was extremely secular. That doesn't prevented it from being quite oppressive.
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