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If it's not practical to redistribute, it's not free software in practice

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Re: If it's not practical to redistribute, it's not free software in practice

#101
post #98
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canonical have the right to protect their brand. But what Canonical are doing is being so unclear about your obligations around their brand that it's impossible to know whether they'd consider a derivative an infringement of their rights. If I release software under a BSD-style license with an additional proviso that you must demonstrate p=np before being able to redistribute it, we'd probably agree that it was non-f…

> But what Canonical are doing is being so unclear about your obligations around their brand that it's impossible to know whether they'd consider a derivative an infringement of their rights. Your responsibility is to abide by the terms of the license, and trademark law. It's not about what Canonical considers an infringement, but what the law considers infringement based on the interpretation of the license you impl…

What Canonical considers an infringement is still pretty relevant. Civil law is mainly a tool for resolving disagreements between parties, not a system of abstractly judging the conformance of every action to the (very large) body of law. Therefore the first important step is to be able to understand the viewpoints of each party, which would tell you if there is even a disagreement to begin with. Lawsuits are a last resort for when parties are unable to reach an understanding on their own.

Canonical doesn't have the final word on things, but they do have a word on things: they can clarify their own position. If what they claim as trademarks goes beyond what trademark law allows, then it's true that they would be unable to enforce that in court, so it's ultimately not their call. But they could simplify the situation and reduce the risk to all parties of needing to resolve disagreements in court by explicitly stating their position on acceptable uses of their trademark, i.e. what they would not consider to be a violation of their protected interest. This would give downstream users at least a better understanding of Canonical's interpretation, which is key to avoiding expensive lawsuits: if you're using Canonical's trademarks only in ways that Canonical itself considers proper, then there's no disagreement that needs to be resolved in court.

Re: If it's not practical to redistribute, it's not free software in practice

#102
post #98
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canonical have the right to protect their brand. But what Canonical are doing is being so unclear about your obligations around their brand that it's impossible to know whether they'd consider a derivative an infringement of their rights. If I release software under a BSD-style license with an additional proviso that you must demonstrate p=np before being able to redistribute it, we'd probably agree that it was non-f…

> But what Canonical are doing is being so unclear about your obligations around their brand that it's impossible to know whether they'd consider a derivative an infringement of their rights. Your responsibility is to abide by the terms of the license, and trademark law. It's not about what Canonical considers an infringement, but what the law considers infringement based on the interpretation of the license you impl…

You can read the policy that way. You can also read the policy as imposing additional copyright related restrictions on the code. Most free software licenses permit Canonical to add additional restrictions, so this is something they can do. Your interpretation is the obvious one, but Canonical have repeatedly refused to confirm that it's the correct one.

This is the heart of the argument between the FSF and Canonical over whether the policy was GPL compatible or not. If it was merely a restatement of trademark law, it would have been. If it was an additional copyright-based restriction, it wouldn't. As https://www.fsf.org/news/canonical-updated-licensing-terms shows, Canonical chose to add a "trump clause" rather than clarifying their stance.

Re: If it's not practical to redistribute, it's not free software in practice

#103
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the comments on Matthew Garrett's blog, RHEL has an almost identical clause in its EULA: in order to redistribute open source code in RHEL, you must "remove and replace all occurrences of Red Hat trademarks". (Unless they've changed it, Red Hat also has a policy that redistributing their Linux kernel patchset they supply is a breach of contract and they will terminate support and updates for anyone caugh…

Link to Red Hat's policy (see section on publishing modified software on page 5): https://www.redhat.com/f/pdf/corp/RH-3573_284204_TM_Gd.pdf I'm not an expert, but to be honest this sounds pretty similar to what Garrett is complaining about: "You may not name or brand your product “Red Hat” or use the Red Hat trademarks in any way, either on your product or in related advertising." "You must use a different trademark…

Later on the same page they tell you what you have to do to meet those conditions. The fact that Canonical won't do that is what I'm unhappy about.

Re: If it's not practical to redistribute, it's not free software in practice

#104
post #60
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My last SuSE was 6.3. How is the overall OpenSuSE experience nowadays? Since I spend most of my time on Windows anyway, I ended up settling with Ubuntu for my netbook and VMs.

I really couldn't be happier with a Distro. It is super stable and easy to upgrade. This computer at work has been over 5 years of just sudo zypper dup after a one line command to rename the repos. The ability to install packages with https://build.opensuse.org is such a better system than ppa. For the last three years I use i3 (Tiled Window Manager) and works great on in VM at my Windows machines. Still sad to see s…

How does "build" and ppa compare to Fedora's "copr", if you know?

Re: If it's not practical to redistribute, it's not free software in practice

#105
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add to your point, Mozilla publishes a clear policy on usage of its trademarks [1]. This has enabled Debian to maintain a rebranded version of Firefox called Iceweasel [2] [1] https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/trademarks/ [2] https://wiki.debian.org/Iceweasel

To be fair, when it happened, Debian rebranding Firefox as Iceweasel was an unhappy decision at the end of an acrimonious discussion. It's only with the passage of time (and by comparison to Canonical's obfuscation) that it looks like a clear and appropriate resolution to a trademark issue.

That's also true. Things weren't always like that when it comes to large organizations involved in FOSS development, but one would hope lessons are learned :-)

Re: If it's not practical to redistribute, it's not free software in practice

#106
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all agendas and interests are born equal. That someone else does the same thing does not make it any better. It is insulting from you to call the demand for inclusion and giving back as "myopic" and "abhorrent". Like with social interaction, we don't need everybody to be the same, but we very much demand some core principles to be followed. Would you call that myopic and abhorrent?

I don't even know what "demanding inclusion" means here. Most complaints about Canonical's exclusivity underpin a utopian fantasy that everyone in the Linux community must converge towards one holy solution. Any deviation is considered "fragmentation" and brutally discouraged.

There are two ways of looking at this, and those ways depend entirely on how you use Linux.

One way is that, by having a "one holy solution", you avoid fragmentation and get more stuff working on end-user's systems with minimal hassle. This is why, for example, Steam targets Ubuntu. They're the 800lb gorilla of the Linux world, and if someone is a desktop Linux user, odds are high they're using Ubuntu rather than anything else. They target the most users with the least hassle.

The end user doesn't want to mess with dependencies, compilation, desktop environments, and so forth. They want their shit to work. Fragmentation is an impediment to this from a usability standpoint, and that's before we even talk about security (e.g. Android).

The other way is that by these tightly integrated, non-interoperable stacks like Unity and Systemd make life miserable for every other Linux user in the world who values the ability that they can sample this init system, that window manager, etc, and build a system that fits their needs much more closely than any of the tightly integrated one-size-fits-all solutions.

This isn't a false dichotomy either - there are no companies out there nowadays that make good software that works really well for end users with minimal hassle, while allowing the degree of customization and interchangeability that power users demand.

So pick your poison, I guess.

Re: If it's not practical to redistribute, it's not free software in practice

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add to your point, Mozilla publishes a clear policy on usage of its trademarks [1]. This has enabled Debian to maintain a rebranded version of Firefox called Iceweasel [2] [1] https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/trademarks/ [2] https://wiki.debian.org/Iceweasel

To add to that, Firefox sync work well with iceweasel at least in my personal experience. My understanding is that iceweasel is Firefox, just an older version with security patches as needed.

Iceweasel in Debian unstable stays up to date with the latest Firefox Extended Support Release, and Iceweasel in Debian experimental stays up to date with the latest Firefox release. Packages also exist in a separate repository for the latest beta and aurora releases, as well as of the latest release packaged for stable.

Re: If it's not practical to redistribute, it's not free software in practice

#108
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which is Canonical's problem, and no one else's. It then becomes the problem of its users, and rapidly the problem of userland developers, because users expect their software to just work in Ubuntu. Developers can now go and waste effort just to comply to Canonical's de facto walled garden, or lose all Ubuntu users (furthering the "Linux is too complicated and fragmented!" narrative). Everybody loses, nobody wins.

Assuming binary-only distribution, you already have this problem for a multitude of distros. If you're employing such a proprietary model, you'll obviously have problems you'll need to overcome. Assuming source distribution, I do not see any special effort required. This is a protectionist, anti-choice argument.

> Assuming source distribution, I do not see any special effort required.

No special effort to support Mir/Unity/upstart? Other Ubuntu-only APIs, standards, UX, Kernel/Library versions not employed by other distributions, …?

(Upstart was killed when even Canonical realized it was impossible to demand of everyone else to support their special snowflake init system.)

Re: If it's not practical to redistribute, it's not free software in practice

#109
post #71

This is silly. Free software is software that complies with a free software license. Full stop. Even RMS supports commercial use of free software, and has stated before that binaries don't need to be free of cost, or that it needs to be easy to distribute, only that the source is available for modification and 'free' redistribution. Canonical has every right to protect its brand. Firefox does this, as do many others.…

> Free software is software that complies with a free software license.

Then most of Ubuntu, with the exception of the bits under copyleft licenses like the GPL that prevent Canonical from relicensing, is not Free Software, as Canonical have effectively placed another license over the top of it that makes it non-free.

(Note that while the FSF, Debian, and OSI definitions allow licenses to require renaming a product, mostly because of old TeX licenses, that doesn't mean they allow licenses to require extensive or functional changes of a non-specific nature throughout a codebase.)

Re: If it's not practical to redistribute, it's not free software in practice

#110
post #92
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it protecting their brand to say that I am not allowed to redistribute the libpcap0.8 binary package that they built, written by other developers, licensed under the 3-clause BSD license, packaged by Debian developers, and the only reference to Ubuntu is the substitution of "Maintainer: Ubuntu Developers , Original-Maintainer: Romain Francoise " in the binary package details, that they automatically add when t…

You can distribute unmodified versions of Ubuntu or the binaries, you just can't call Ubuntu + your binaries "Ubuntu", or call your distribution + Ubuntu binaries "Ubuntu". It's basically just clarification concerning the GPL and trademark law. Software licenses are legal documents, they're binding as far as the interpretation of the laws of the jurisdiction.

> You can distribute unmodified versions of Ubuntu or the binaries, you just can't call Ubuntu + your binaries "Ubuntu", or call your distribution + Ubuntu binaries "Ubuntu".

That's not what Canonical's policy says. What you described sounds like a perfectly sensible policy. However, Canonical's policy instead says you must remove all of Canonical's trademarks. Canonical's policy also does not limit itself to functioning under trademark law alone; as written, it functions under any mechanism Canonical has to add restrictions, which would include copyright law.

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