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If it's not practical to redistribute, it's not free software in practice

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Re: If it's not practical to redistribute, it's not free software in practice

#71
This is silly. Free software is software that complies with a free software license. Full stop.

Even RMS supports commercial use of free software, and has stated before that binaries don't need to be free of cost, or that it needs to be easy to distribute, only that the source is available for modification and 'free' redistribution.

Canonical has every right to protect its brand. Firefox does this, as do many others. This doesn't change the fact that you can use their code as you wish.

Re: If it's not practical to redistribute, it's not free software in practice

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are open-source, but they only really work on Ubuntu. Upstart is another example, and it's part of why other Ubuntu-specific things won't work on other distros. Other distros could try to port Ubuntu projects, but why would Canonical accept their patches upstream?

Actually the systemd guys looked at upstart for redhat in the beginning, but choose to rewrite it anyway. That had nothing to do with the Canonical entanglement though. Though I dislike Unity and Mir, I think RedHats understanding of "Open" Source is a lot more disturbing.. https://lwn.net/Articles/432012

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Re: If it's not practical to redistribute, it's not free software in practice

#73
post #2

I agree: Canonical should make it easier for developers to strip the company's trademarks when forking their applications. Canonical's relationship with the rest of the FOSS community always seemed a bit screwed up to me. They try to make Ubuntu the best Linux distro while ignoring what all the other ones are doing. All other distros seem much more friendly towards integration between projects, to benefit from the sh…

I'm not sure why you think this is a bad thing. Canonical is a corollary to Apple in the Linux world. They set their own agenda with limited cooperation. The FOSS obsession with "community" and "integration" is myopic and abhorrent. As if everyone must converge on one approach, one vanguard. There are scantly any problem domains where only one solution applies. Now, Canonical keeping to themselves has a very crucial…

Here's a good example.

Canonical comes up with a replacement for sysvinit called Upstart. Everyone agrees sysvinit is a dumpster fire on wheels careening around at high speed, so a new init system is welcomed as a Good Thing. Some people from Red Hat wanted to contribute improvements to Upstart, but Canonical insisted on a Contributor Licensing Agreement that would allow Canonical to relicense the work however they wanted, including commercially. Shockingly, Red Hat employees couldn't get clearance to do uncompensated labor for a Canonical project like that, so rather than contribute to Upstart, we got systemd.

Eventually, systemd became so [PICK ONE OF SUCCESSFUL OR BELIGERENT] that Debian adopted it. And at that point... game over for Upstart. Ubuntu uses systemd now. Because they don't have the resources to package everything for Upstart if Debian is moving to systemd.

The thing is, Canonical isn't that well resourced. Look at who contributes to the Linux kernel.[1] Looking at the top 10 sponsors of contributors, we see some of the usual suspects -- Intel, Red Hat, Linaro, Samsung, IBM, SuSE. We see "Vision Engraving Systems," weirdly. Going out of the top 10, a lot of hardware vendors, spits Oracle, FOSS Outreach Program for Women, Pengutronix... I mean, look at the homepage for Pengutronix. [2] It's some 90s era HTML 4.01 they've got going on there. But they're able to make significant contributions to the Linux kernel. Canonical isn't on the list. Canonical has NEVER been on the list, so far as I can tell. You can look all up and down the stack, there's a handful of Canonical-only projects they contribute to, but they're a rounding error in overall Linux development.

Which is their right, of course -- the GPL doesn't insist upon contributing back. And I would agree that shaming Canonical about community isn't productive. At the same time, Apple isn't what they are, it's what they want to be but are failing at being. Apple can get away with incorporating BSD code into their OS but still writing vast swaths of it themselves because Apple doesn't need any of the BSDs to adopt launchd to make it feasible for them to keep running it. Apple has money and can pay people to write code. And on the desktop, OS X has twice the market share of every Linux distro combined, so they can get developers to write applications for their OS even though it doesn't follow the lead of the rest of the BSD-derived OSes. (And yes, I know that OS X resembles a BSD distro far, far less than Ubuntu resembles Debian.) You're right that Canonical wants to be the Apple of the Linux world. But they're not succeeding at it and they're not GOING to succeed without some way of becoming profitable that has yet eluded them. And developers don't want the burden of having to support Canonicals quixiotic insistence that they are the Apple of the Linux world.

[1] http://www.linuxfoundation.org/publications/linux-foundation... (Also, why do I have to tell the Linux Foundation who I work for in order to read this report?)

[2] http://www.pengutronix.de/index_en.html

Re: If it's not practical to redistribute, it's not free software in practice

#74
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why you think this is a bad thing. Canonical is a corollary to Apple in the Linux world. They set their own agenda with limited cooperation. The FOSS obsession with "community" and "integration" is myopic and abhorrent. As if everyone must converge on one approach, one vanguard. There are scantly any problem domains where only one solution applies. Now, Canonical keeping to themselves has a very crucial…

Here's a good example. Canonical comes up with a replacement for sysvinit called Upstart. Everyone agrees sysvinit is a dumpster fire on wheels careening around at high speed, so a new init system is welcomed as a Good Thing. Some people from Red Hat wanted to contribute improvements to Upstart, but Canonical insisted on a Contributor Licensing Agreement that would allow Canonical to relicense the work however they w…

Your story is factually off, I'm afraid.

Canonical comes up with a replacement for sysvinit called Upstart.

Actually a replacement for both sysvinit and sysv-rc, along with some overlap for hotplug and other demand-based/lazy operations.

Everyone agrees sysvinit is a dumpster fire on wheels careening around at high speed, so a new init system is welcomed as a Good Thing.

Hah. I wish.

In fact, the painful truth of the matter is few people really cared. There was lots of prior art (and indeed, Canonical themselves chose to write Upstart instead of adopting the emerging initng at the time for largely handwaving/wish-wash reasons [1]), but not a lot of interest in seriously tackling the problem domain beyond introducing a host of band-aids on top of sysv-rc like LSB dependency headers and startpar.

Some people from Red Hat wanted to contribute improvements to Upstart, but Canonical insisted on a Contributor Licensing Agreement that would allow Canonical to relicense the work however they wanted, including commercially. Shockingly, Red Hat employees couldn't get clearance to do uncompensated labor for a Canonical project like that, so rather than contribute to Upstart, we got systemd.

In fact, "some people from Red Hat" already had deeper architectural failings with Upstart (which I agree with, but absolutely not with how they decided to "solve" them) and its event model. The beginnings of systemd (prototyped under the name of Babykit) were lying around for several years on Lennart Poettering's machine.

And at that point... game over for Upstart. Ubuntu uses systemd now. Because they don't have the resources to package everything for Upstart if Debian is moving to systemd.

Which, ironically, is a form of cooperation. And look what cooperation gets you: homogenization towards a Red Hat solution.

The thing is, Canonical isn't that well resourced. Look at who contributes to the Linux kernel.

I'm well aware of the massive corporate contribution, and Canonical's low activity there.

But they're not succeeding at it and they're not GOING to succeed without some way of becoming profitable that has yet eluded them. And developers don't want the burden of having to support Canonicals quixiotic insistence that they are the Apple of the Linux world.

Again, Canonical are at a loss, true. This is their loss, not developers'. There is no "burden" placed on them unless they decide to ship their software in binary form only, in which case the problems already exist for any distro with its own packaging infrastructure.

[1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReplacementInit

Re: If it's not practical to redistribute, it's not free software in practice

#75
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't necessarily agree with how mjg59 chooses to resolve his issues, but it's hard not to get the impression that he's a little right about this. The problem is precisely this: > With Ubuntu and any other software , you get the source and it is up to you to deal with the replacement of any trademark strings. (Emphasis mine) That's not true of any other software! I'm not sure how things are for RHEL, but I imagine…

To add to your point, Mozilla publishes a clear policy on usage of its trademarks [1]. This has enabled Debian to maintain a rebranded version of Firefox called Iceweasel [2] [1] https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/trademarks/ [2] https://wiki.debian.org/Iceweasel

To be fair, when it happened, Debian rebranding Firefox as Iceweasel was an unhappy decision at the end of an acrimonious discussion. It's only with the passage of time (and by comparison to Canonical's obfuscation) that it looks like a clear and appropriate resolution to a trademark issue.

Re: If it's not practical to redistribute, it's not free software in practice

#76
post #19

Ok the real question is, how does this compares to CentOS/"Prominent Linux Vendor" relationship And Linux Mint also recompiles and replaces the trademarks no?

According to the comments on Matthew Garrett's blog, RHEL has an almost identical clause in its EULA: in order to redistribute open source code in RHEL, you must "remove and replace all occurrences of Red Hat trademarks". (Unless they've changed it, Red Hat also has a policy that redistributing their Linux kernel patchset they supply is a breach of contract and they will terminate support and updates for anyone caugh…

Link to Red Hat's policy (see section on publishing modified software on page 5): https://www.redhat.com/f/pdf/corp/RH-3573_284204_TM_Gd.pdf

I'm not an expert, but to be honest this sounds pretty similar to what Garrett is complaining about:

"You may not name or brand your product “Red Hat” or use the Red Hat trademarks in any way, either on your product or in related advertising."

"You must use a different trademark for your product that will not cause confusion with the trademarks of Red Hat, will not indicate or imply that your product originates from or is sponsored or approved by Red Hat, and which otherwise complies with applicable trademark laws."

"You may not state that your product contains Red Hat Linux or Red Hat Enterprise Linux."

Re: If it's not practical to redistribute, it's not free software in practice

#77
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all agendas and interests are born equal. That someone else does the same thing does not make it any better. It is insulting from you to call the demand for inclusion and giving back as "myopic" and "abhorrent". Like with social interaction, we don't need everybody to be the same, but we very much demand some core principles to be followed. Would you call that myopic and abhorrent?

I don't even know what "demanding inclusion" means here. Most complaints about Canonical's exclusivity underpin a utopian fantasy that everyone in the Linux community must converge towards one holy solution. Any deviation is considered "fragmentation" and brutally discouraged.

I was referring to Canonical's decision to make it difficult for others to use their work, thereby excluding others from their work.

Re: If it's not practical to redistribute, it's not free software in practice

#78
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Open source != free

The ISC DHCP server is "open source", in that the source is available. It's "free" in that anyone can download it and use it. But... try getting patches in. Unless you're a paying member of the ISC consortium, you can't. There are performance problems going back a decade which are firmly in the "won't fix" category. OpenSSL is similar.

Open source software (OSS) means the source code is available under an OSI approved license. While the term could not be trademarked due to the process being impractical, we like to be precise in order to not dilute what is otherwise a very useful term.

"Free software" also means source-code being distributed under an FSF approved license. Unfortunately English doesn't have an equivalent for "libre", like romance languages do, with "free" being overloaded. So of course, usage of "free" has a long history of being overridden depending on context, going back to freemium/freeware/shareware. This is why context is important and why people then feel the need to be precise about the kind of free we are talking about - free as in beer or as in speech. You're talking about free as in beer and in our context Free Software really refers to FSF approved licensing. And Wikipedia does agree. Of course, the set of licenses that are FSF approved and OSI approved does overlap, though in theory you could have some differences, because the definitions are different. For example I think AGPL should not be OSI approved. But I digress.

Back to the point I want to make - source code being able does not make a software open source and having the binaries free as in beer does not make it free software.

Re: If it's not practical to redistribute, it's not free software in practice

#79
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a good example. Canonical comes up with a replacement for sysvinit called Upstart. Everyone agrees sysvinit is a dumpster fire on wheels careening around at high speed, so a new init system is welcomed as a Good Thing. Some people from Red Hat wanted to contribute improvements to Upstart, but Canonical insisted on a Contributor Licensing Agreement that would allow Canonical to relicense the work however they w…

Your story is factually off, I'm afraid. Canonical comes up with a replacement for sysvinit called Upstart. Actually a replacement for both sysvinit and sysv-rc, along with some overlap for hotplug and other demand-based/lazy operations. Everyone agrees sysvinit is a dumpster fire on wheels careening around at high speed, so a new init system is welcomed as a Good Thing. Hah. I wish. In fact, the painful truth of the…

Most of your corrections to my story aren't really germane to the point, and mostly involve your constant flogging of a bunch of sysvinit replacements that never caught on, but there's one where I think you move from mere pedantry to being wrong:

> In fact, "some people from Red Hat" already had deeper architectural failings with Upstart (which I agree with, but absolutely not with how they decided to "solve" them) and its event model. The beginnings of systemd (prototyped under the name of Babykit) were lying around for several years on Lennart Poettering's machine.

Here's Kay Sievers, one of the originators of systemd[1]:

> True statement. And yeah, without the CLA, we would very likely have worked on upstart, instead of starting the systemd project. Four years ago we talked to lawyers and tried pretty hard to convince them to give it up, but there was no way to negotiate.

In the comments, from Scott James Remnant, who wrote Upstart for Canonical:

> I don't think we ever disagreed enough for me to refuse patches from them - it was very much a case of they had different ideas to me, and couldn't contribute them because of the CLA

> If the CLA wasn't there, we'd've just tugged and pulled and fought about patches like normal projects, and Upstart would have turned out much like systemd - I'd've been okay with that :)

And another comment from SJR:

> you'd be surprised how little of Upstart's code is the "event system". It could have quite easily evolved into what systemd looks like today, with an active community working on it.

> Indeed, systemd today doesn't look much like systemd back then either, it's evolved over time - the dependency system has taken a greater forefront than the socket system it was designed around, etc.

> systemd had the benefit of an active developer community, because it didn't put barriers up to contribution.

People who wrote for systemd and Upstart at the time both claim that if it weren't for the CLA, Upstart would've been contributed to by the people who eventually wrote systemd instead of systemd being its own project. I see no reason to disbelieve them.

[1] https://plus.google.com/+KaySievers/posts/C3chC26khpq

Re: If it's not practical to redistribute, it's not free software in practice

#80
post #21
post #2

I agree: Canonical should make it easier for developers to strip the company's trademarks when forking their applications. Canonical's relationship with the rest of the FOSS community always seemed a bit screwed up to me. They try to make Ubuntu the best Linux distro while ignoring what all the other ones are doing. All other distros seem much more friendly towards integration between projects, to benefit from the sh…

That's repeated all too often and it gets stuck into the mind of people. But is it actually true? Ubuntu is still heavily based on Debian and still reuses most of the packages. There has been a gradual move towards systemd and systemd is default in Ubuntu 15.10. To me, mjg59 comes out as a bitter person. He used to work for Canonical in the early days of Ubuntu. He shared the vision for a usable open-source desktop.…

> A couple of days ago there was some open-source appreciation day by the Ubuntu community and it looks very suspicious that mjg95 coincided his rant with this.

I posted it the day after I got a reply from Canonical telling me that they wouldn't be answering my questions about the rights of downstream recipients.

> mjg59's attitude is like "if it is not ours, let's f* their efforts anyway".

I'm willing to do the technical work required to split the trademarks into separate packages as long as Canonical are willing to accept that.

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