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Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

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Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#41
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say that they were totalitarian, merely that they had taken a step in that direction. Powers are abused, 100% of the time, even if you don't find out. Steps against free society add up.

>to get blackmail material on 100% of people Nonsense.

We had an example not even a month ago. In many cities, there are enough parking spots for everyone, so many citizens will leave their cars for the night near their homes in places where they do not cause significant disturbance, and the police will tolerate this behavior and not ticket them for it. This is a win for everyone: the citizens have a spot to park, and the mayor doesn't have to spend public funds to set up parking spots.

In completely unrelated news, the city of Beauvais voted 67% against the municipal police force carrying weapons. The municipal police retaliated by not tolerating night-time parking anymore, resulting in a significant increase in parking tickets in locations that had been safe for years.

And while the mayor did apologize for this, the municipal police said it was "just doing our job".

http://www.leparisien.fr/beauvais-60000/beauvais-des-pv-pour...

Making common behavior illegal, and then tolerating it, is a great way to harass dissenters in a perfectly legal way.

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#42
post #6

Why should we listen? France already massively ramped up their surveillance state after the Hebdo attacks (the perps were known to them beforehand anyway), and that did absolutely nothing to stop a much larger and more complex attack, also with known perps. A panopticon can't stop terrorists from lashing out violently, but it can certainly chill speech and promote totalitarian government. That's their angle: use the…

"And that did nothing to stop a much larger, more complex attack"

Perhaps, but I think the best way to measure the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of the program is not the number of attacks that have slipped through, but the proportion of those that were prevented compared to those that slipped through.

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#43
post #13
post #4

This kind of thing doesn't matter. Encryption simply can't be stopped by governments.

It certainly does matter to me, and your comment makes me wonder if it might matter to you and you don't know it. If you read it, the articles's thrust isn't largely about encryption, it's about mass surveillance. The reasons it matters to me: - The government shouldn't have the right to wire-tap all citizens at once. We already established that for analog telephones, but digital has become an excuse to undo the anno…

Many websites require HTTPS and many of those are hosted in foreign countries.

Banning encryption is like banning breathing. Yeah, they can, but we all still have to do it.

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#44
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say that they were totalitarian, merely that they had taken a step in that direction. Powers are abused, 100% of the time, even if you don't find out. Steps against free society add up.

>to get blackmail material on 100% of people Nonsense.

We are talking about a country that routinely acts like a terrorist organisation. Look up who blew up Greenpeace boat ~30 years ago.

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#45
post #6

Why should we listen? France already massively ramped up their surveillance state after the Hebdo attacks (the perps were known to them beforehand anyway), and that did absolutely nothing to stop a much larger and more complex attack, also with known perps. A panopticon can't stop terrorists from lashing out violently, but it can certainly chill speech and promote totalitarian government. That's their angle: use the…

"I can't understand how people can still give governments the benefit of the doubt when they've been exposed as liars repeatedly for years."

The government is not the borg. They don't trust "the government", they trust various good people in the government.

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#46
post #42
post #6

Why should we listen? France already massively ramped up their surveillance state after the Hebdo attacks (the perps were known to them beforehand anyway), and that did absolutely nothing to stop a much larger and more complex attack, also with known perps. A panopticon can't stop terrorists from lashing out violently, but it can certainly chill speech and promote totalitarian government. That's their angle: use the…

"And that did nothing to stop a much larger, more complex attack" Perhaps, but I think the best way to measure the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of the program is not the number of attacks that have slipped through, but the proportion of those that were prevented compared to those that slipped through.

Unless of course the program contributes to causing those attacks in the first place. Now? Probably not. 20 years time? Perhaps.

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#47
Notice we don't see calls for more surveillance after domestic shootings/terrorism. Well, body cams for police is maybe an exception. But schools, churches, and movie theaters get shot up weekly.

I think the illusion that somehow the surveillance apparatus filters out white people and only focuses on terrorism lets Americans feel okay with it.

Also I don't think most people realize how almost every action and thought in their lives ends up on a computer or going over the internet. Everyone just focuses on cellphone metadata, maybe because the full truth of what's being surveilled is too painful to contemplate.

I would like to see some politician formulate a response the involves boosting these Middle Eastern economies and schools and "bombing" them with movies and music from LA. If we give these radicals some chance at a life then maybe they'll stop blowing themselves up and taking us with them. Also maybe we can consider that they're responding rationally to the endless intervention by the West into their affairs. Not that I'm justifying their actions, at all, but it's not healthy to dehumanize the enemy. It's what we did to the Japanese and we ended up fire bombing and nuclear bombing them.

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#48
post #42
post #6

Why should we listen? France already massively ramped up their surveillance state after the Hebdo attacks (the perps were known to them beforehand anyway), and that did absolutely nothing to stop a much larger and more complex attack, also with known perps. A panopticon can't stop terrorists from lashing out violently, but it can certainly chill speech and promote totalitarian government. That's their angle: use the…

"And that did nothing to stop a much larger, more complex attack" Perhaps, but I think the best way to measure the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of the program is not the number of attacks that have slipped through, but the proportion of those that were prevented compared to those that slipped through.

This is impossible. One of the problems with the blatant misuse of forecasting is governments using it it to compare outrageous black swan futures against real history. It leads to claiming that "spying on everyone 24/7 to prevent an infinite number of terror attacks" is in everyones interest. The reality is that a limited number of black-swan terror attacks is actually a minimal cost compared to destroying social fabric modern western society is built on.

This type of false thinking is what allows government officials to manipulate public thought into agreeing to give up their rights. This has literally led to the FBI radicalizing young men in order to 'catch them' in the act -- thus justifying their existence by creating the very black-swan event they are supposed to stop.

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#49
"One major reason Congress ended the broader program is that it didn’t work. Millions of dollars and over 10 years of effort later"

That's the thing. They are convincing everyone that it's about security, but it's not. The military industrial congressional complex (the correct term before editing of DI's famous speech) has latched onto "cyber" as another money extraction through fear pipeline. We need to stop assuming their real purpose is security, and understand that instead it is about money and power.

William Binney is the perfect man to go to about this sort of thing. He designed a system that would cost in the two digit millions that would be placed at core nodes and would encrypt/anonymize American's data unless a FISA warrant was obtained. They scrapped his program, and implemented a multibillion dollar program that didn't protect privacy, didn't ingest or connect data as well, and this was from the very top of the Agency!

Corruption is a root cause of these issues. Congress isn't as dumb as they pretend, but they get big donations and re-election support when they pass stuff like this, and they are more concerned about that than any principles. All three branches of government are affected by this level of corruption and cronyism. Programs like this are designed for two things:

1. Make the middle-top MICC men (the startups in Mclean VA for example) lots of money.

2. While the middle men are rolling in that money, having torn up the constitution to get it, the oligarchy siphons the data through loopholes, and suddenly, they have enough data to plan the next evolution in the facist world government plan.

You remember the saying, follow the money? Well, at a certain point, when you have billions, another few million isn't that big of a deal. At that point, it's all about power. Be wary of future calls to world governmental style bodies to be formed, and remember centralization is a weakness, not a strength! Mark my words.

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#50

Most things around my life in the last 15 years fit familiar, cynical pattern that politicians spit in our face and get away with it. That leads to desperation and learned helplessness. To give EFF a credit, they actually fight. Unfortunately, quixotically

I like how the EFF is described as quixotic and cynical in the same story (albeit by different commenters)
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