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Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

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Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#31
post #29
post #12

Does this EFF post say anything new, or is it voted to the top of the site because (a) anti-surveillance and (b) EFF? I find EFF to be a deeply cynical organization, even though I for the most part share their policy objectives.

What I find cynical is the exploitation of tragedies by demagogue politicians and intelligence personnel in vying to curtail a few more of our civil liberties. On the contrary, I find the EFF one of the few groups of optimists.

Obviously cynicism isn't a finite resource.

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#32
post #4

This kind of thing doesn't matter. Encryption simply can't be stopped by governments.

> Encryption simply can't be stopped by governments.

Try spending couple of hours being beaten by government thugs just because you encrypted something (they won't even bother asking you decrypt) and you will sing another tune.

Lets assume that the relative physical safety that a person enjoys in the west in the hands of the LEO is the exception and not the norm worldwide.

Governments can stop anything they want if they are strong or desperate enough.

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#33
post #4

This kind of thing doesn't matter. Encryption simply can't be stopped by governments.

While true, moving the entire web to HTTPS with PFS-enabled configurations, secure cipher suites, and key-pinning is a huge challenge.

In any case, the strategy lately has been to force consumer ISPs to keep logs of who is connecting where (The UK government wants ISPs to log the URI of every plaintext page you visit, and will no doubt eventually want DNS logs and TLS SNI and TCP connection logs for other kinds of connectivity).

The best you can do today is ensure your TLS deployment is A+ rated at SSL Labs[0] and offer a Tor hidden service for your visitors. That said, if governments and ISPs legislate/cooperate to do active MITM attacks, then there's nothing we can really do to help Joe Public that wouldn't constitute a crime or get you put on a watchlist yourself.

[0] https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#35
post #4

This kind of thing doesn't matter. Encryption simply can't be stopped by governments.

No it can't, but laws against crypto can be used to mandate that only certain crypto be used in "professional" settings. That crypto will of course have to be certified, which will lock anyone but Fortune 500 companies and products certified by expensive consultants out of essentially all enterprise markets. Your browser will have to be certified to talk to certified SSL servers, etc. So forget about open source, open platforms, open standards, and startups competing with big companies in the enterprise.

That may well be the real objective. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if big players are lobbying behind the scenes for the government to mandate a new kind of FIPS for all consumer crypto, which would lock smaller players out of the market and of course make us all safer from 'terr (right?). Remember how SOPA was lobbied for by GoDaddy so they could sell a new expensive premium class of domain registration?

Using bloody crimes and tragedies to lobby for unfair market advantage. It's how business is done in Washington (and probably other capitols too).

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#36
post #28
post #2

Just a reminder, there is no evidence that the Paris attackers used any kind of encryption. After Endless Demonization Of Encryption, Police Find Paris Attackers Coordinated Via Unencrypted SMS: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20151118/08474732854/after...

> Just a reminder, there is no evidence that the Paris attackers used any kind of encryption. They actually had unencrypted text messages on their phones and used cars. Why don't we ban unencrypted text message applications and cars?

Bangladesh actually banned WhatsApp and other IM apps.

http://www.thedailystar.net/whatsapp-mypeople-line-also-bloc...

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#37
What's surprising to me is that even the liberal media doesn't seem to question the assumption behind the questions that they're asking. They ask questions like should we give up our privacy in order to gain security? But of course this question assumes that it's possible to gain security by giving up privacy which is clearly false. Just look at totalitarian regimes - are they free of terrorist attacks? No.

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#38
post #4

This kind of thing doesn't matter. Encryption simply can't be stopped by governments.

It can't be totally stopped. But plenty of encryption-enabled apps can be subverted. I think it should be treated as a given that

1. a sufficiently clever and malicious person can implement broken encryption in a virtually-undetectable, and perhaps even deniable way 2. the government has the capability of exerting enormous pressure on app manufacturers and service providers

Given 1 & 2, it's reasonable to assume that an unknown and possibly great number of encrypted chat and encrypted email and encrypted etc are all subverted.

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#39
post #6

Why should we listen? France already massively ramped up their surveillance state after the Hebdo attacks (the perps were known to them beforehand anyway), and that did absolutely nothing to stop a much larger and more complex attack, also with known perps. A panopticon can't stop terrorists from lashing out violently, but it can certainly chill speech and promote totalitarian government. That's their angle: use the…

Perhaps the argument is that they couldnt keep a close enough eye on the "known perps".

I feel like it is a fair/valid argument to support expanded/enhanced wiretapping of those with warrants ("known perps"). One could argue either way if it is the person's right to know if they are on a watchlist.

I DONT feel like the argument for expanded/enhanced wiretapping for everyone is fair/valid. Aside from the fact that it feels draconian and cowardly, there isnt any hard data to back up its effectiveness.

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#40

What's surprising to me is that even the liberal media doesn't seem to question the assumption behind the questions that they're asking. They ask questions like should we give up our privacy in order to gain security? But of course this question assumes that it's possible to gain security by giving up privacy which is clearly false. Just look at totalitarian regimes - are they free of terrorist attacks? No.

> What's surprising to me is that even the liberal media

Both the Guardian and the NYT have articles calling BS on this sort of thing.

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