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Canary in the Code Mine: Coal miners learning to code

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Re: Canary in the Code Mine: Coal miners learning to code

#21

Post by RogtamBar »

user_0001 wrote: post #15
socialist_coder wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like your comment and the article in question are completely anecdotal. Sure, a subset of miners can learn to code. You can't argue against that. But, that really means absolutely nothing to the big picture. The real question is, what percentage of the entire out-of-work blue collar worker population can make the jump? I would agree with Bloomberg, it's probably fairly low. But, I might not be fully recognizin…

> Sure, a subset of miners can learn to code. Anyone can learn to code, it isn't hard what we do. Granted some do push the boundaries, but that is a tiny % of what actual programmers do

>Anyone can learn to code, it isn't hard what we do. Granted some do push the boundaries, but that is a tiny % of what actual programmers do

Anyone?

I attended a selective prep school. Something like 99% of people there went on to university.

Certain students, who'd later finish say, medical school, and go on and be doctors, were completely unable to 'get' coding. Really basic stuff, some Pascal. Mostly women.

They treated it as 'magic'. Couldn't do anything on their own really, even though both teachers and boys tried to explain.

And here it was students at a selective preparatory school. Above average intelligence mostly, in a genetically privileged region(eastern Europe).

"Anyone"...

..sigh.

Re: Canary in the Code Mine: Coal miners learning to code

#22

Post by [deleted] »

RogtamBar wrote: post #21
user_0001 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure, a subset of miners can learn to code. Anyone can learn to code, it isn't hard what we do. Granted some do push the boundaries, but that is a tiny % of what actual programmers do

>Anyone can learn to code, it isn't hard what we do. Granted some do push the boundaries, but that is a tiny % of what actual programmers do Anyone? I attended a selective prep school. Something like 99% of people there went on to university. Certain students, who'd later finish say, medical school, and go on and be doctors, were completely unable to 'get' coding. Really basic stuff, some Pascal. Mostly women. They t…

[deleted]

Re: Canary in the Code Mine: Coal miners learning to code

#23

Post by querulous »

RogtamBar wrote: post #21
user_0001 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure, a subset of miners can learn to code. Anyone can learn to code, it isn't hard what we do. Granted some do push the boundaries, but that is a tiny % of what actual programmers do

>Anyone can learn to code, it isn't hard what we do. Granted some do push the boundaries, but that is a tiny % of what actual programmers do Anyone? I attended a selective prep school. Something like 99% of people there went on to university. Certain students, who'd later finish say, medical school, and go on and be doctors, were completely unable to 'get' coding. Really basic stuff, some Pascal. Mostly women. They t…

They failed because they thought it was magic and probably no one ever stopped to show them that it wasn't.

The skills necessary to be an average developer are pretty minimal. Basic math, literacy, organization, basic problem solving, patience and persistence. Communication helps but it's obviously not a requirement as you've displayed.

Re: Canary in the Code Mine: Coal miners learning to code

#24

Post by querulous »

Jach wrote: post #12
mindcrime wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even those less demanding BigCo jobs are often gated by a proxy IQ test I'd be way of assuming that anybody working a blue-collar job has a low IQ. There are lots of reasons people take the jobs they take, and IQ is only one of those reasons. I would wager that there are a significant number of coal miners, plumbers, auto mechanics, etc. who are just as "smart" in the general sense as the average HN reader. I obvious…

Sure, plenty are smart, or at least not dumb. But the difference doesn't even have to be so simple as smart/dumb. If your hiring pool consists of two distinct sources, one with an average IQ of 98 (i.e. not dumb), and the other an average IQ of 105, the second source will probably have more hires. Increase the difference (say, to a full standard deviation) and it's only worse for the lower group.

Why do you assume plumbers or electricians let's say have a lower average iq than programmers? Until ~10 years ago plumbers and electricians far outearned programmers.

Re: Canary in the Code Mine: Coal miners learning to code

#25

Post by afarrell »

querulous wrote: post #23
RogtamBar wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Anyone can learn to code, it isn't hard what we do. Granted some do push the boundaries, but that is a tiny % of what actual programmers do Anyone? I attended a selective prep school. Something like 99% of people there went on to university. Certain students, who'd later finish say, medical school, and go on and be doctors, were completely unable to 'get' coding. Really basic stuff, some Pascal. Mostly women. They t…

They failed because they thought it was magic and probably no one ever stopped to show them that it wasn't. The skills necessary to be an average developer are pretty minimal. Basic math, literacy, organization, basic problem solving, patience and persistence. Communication helps but it's obviously not a requirement as you've displayed.

But can everyone get themselves out of the mindset that coding is magic?

Re: Canary in the Code Mine: Coal miners learning to code

#26

Post by Jach »

querulous wrote: post #24
Jach wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, plenty are smart, or at least not dumb. But the difference doesn't even have to be so simple as smart/dumb. If your hiring pool consists of two distinct sources, one with an average IQ of 98 (i.e. not dumb), and the other an average IQ of 105, the second source will probably have more hires. Increase the difference (say, to a full standard deviation) and it's only worse for the lower group.

Why do you assume plumbers or electricians let's say have a lower average iq than programmers? Until ~10 years ago plumbers and electricians far outearned programmers.

The main assumption fell on coal miners. Plumbers and auto mechanics (and now electricians?) and other blue-collar work came up as a generalization, though I'd generally accept the same bet -- that is, there probably won't be much mobility in out-of-work individuals in those fields to software (and IQ-gating is just one of several reasons why that would be since admittedly some BigCo tasks could be done by someone with an IQ between 80-90 but those people will almost never get in the usual way because to invert a tree on a whiteboard or whatever stupid proxy is in fashion probably requires an IQ of >100). But the main reason I assume most of those fields have a lower average IQ is because I assume their job tasks are less cognitively complex in a technical sense than those of a software engineer and I've read https://www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/1997whygmatte... Additionally an average programmer (maybe ignoring freelance web programmers?) has a CS degree and the average CS degree requires a certain level of rigorous math among other things that require above average intelligence to do well, whereas blue collar work typically requires nothing beyond a GED and sometimes various certifications or apprenticeships/training.

But why assume when we have data? Here's just one set. http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/occupations.aspx If you find another that contradicts it please share.

Re: Canary in the Code Mine: Coal miners learning to code

#27

Post by rosege »

querulous wrote: post #23
RogtamBar wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Anyone can learn to code, it isn't hard what we do. Granted some do push the boundaries, but that is a tiny % of what actual programmers do Anyone? I attended a selective prep school. Something like 99% of people there went on to university. Certain students, who'd later finish say, medical school, and go on and be doctors, were completely unable to 'get' coding. Really basic stuff, some Pascal. Mostly women. They t…

They failed because they thought it was magic and probably no one ever stopped to show them that it wasn't. The skills necessary to be an average developer are pretty minimal. Basic math, literacy, organization, basic problem solving, patience and persistence. Communication helps but it's obviously not a requirement as you've displayed.

>patience and persistence

A lot of people admin they dont have this

Re: Canary in the Code Mine: Coal miners learning to code

#29

Post by mathgenius »

I conjecture that if you take any random subset of the population, about 10% of them will be able to program. It's a curious bug that seems to afflict certain people for no apparent reason and spare others.

But the beards will definitely help, that's for sure.

Re: Canary in the Code Mine: Coal miners learning to code

#30

Post by kolinko »

sprkyco wrote: post #13
kolinko wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting story. How did you find the transition from an active work style to a static/sitting one? I always say that programmers have it as hard as miners, but it's a different kind of challenge. One is more physical, another mental (not going insane from sitting in front of computer all the time). You have the comparison, What do you think?

Really mining is seen as this hardcore active lifestyle when in reality it is rather sedentary. Typically there are jobs for jr. level positions which are very physically demanding. Afer about 2 years experience most people get "promoted" to driving some sort of heavy machinery. Often these positions are union jobs where the workers can easily dictate the pace at which they work. Typically I could spend 8 hours or mo…

Thanks for the explanation.
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