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Canary in the Code Mine: Coal miners learning to code

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Re: Canary in the Code Mine: Coal miners learning to code

#11

Post by sprkyco »

socialist_coder wrote: post #5
sprkyco wrote: post #3

After eight years in mining I made the jump to coding. However, my coding quickly changed to infosec. So definitely miners can make this jump. This is highly biased, but I would say that many blue collar workers bring a very different work ethic as compared to other workers in the software industry. Miners especially have a comradery that I have not heard of in other industries. In addition to this 80+ hour work week…

I feel like your comment and the article in question are completely anecdotal. Sure, a subset of miners can learn to code. You can't argue against that. But, that really means absolutely nothing to the big picture. The real question is, what percentage of the entire out-of-work blue collar worker population can make the jump? I would agree with Bloomberg, it's probably fairly low. But, I might not be fully recognizin…

Absolutely anecdotal. This article nor myself never stated that "the entire out-of-work blue collar worker population" can or even would want to make the jump. Many of these blue collar workers can move into other industries it just so happens that programming is becoming more of a trade skill than an engineering one. There is currently a demand for highly skilled CS engineers. However, the jobs that do not require CS skill sets per se, but rather require "coding" skills are becoming more abundant.

Really my "coding" skills have helped me in other areas opening my eyes in new ways to automating my skill set. One of the best testaments to this was talked about by Zed Shaw http://learncodethehardway.org/blog/MAY_15_2012.html Basically stating that programming is a supplement to other skill sets. The majority of these programming bootcamps/workshops are geared towards onramping rapidly to jobs that would not typically qualify as engineering positions. These jobs typically require whiteboard interviews, but once you actually get on the job your programming skill set is not nearly as utilized as it was during the interview. While I cannot quantify this supposition it would be really difficult to get a company to admit or supply data stating that they interview for rock stars, but have you do "janitorial" code work in reality.

Where the Bloomberg article most failed is stating that they "cannot" learn to code. Pretending that becoming a developer/engineer/coder requires some minimal level of IQ, even the IQ standard is hotly debated, is ridiculous. Just as any other skill set it just requires dedication and commitment.

Re: Canary in the Code Mine: Coal miners learning to code

#12

Post by Jach »

mindcrime wrote: post #9
Jach wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd bet it's pretty low, too. Even those less demanding BigCo jobs are often gated by a proxy IQ test in the form of coding challenges, and I'm not seeing any signs of those going away.

Even those less demanding BigCo jobs are often gated by a proxy IQ test I'd be way of assuming that anybody working a blue-collar job has a low IQ. There are lots of reasons people take the jobs they take, and IQ is only one of those reasons. I would wager that there are a significant number of coal miners, plumbers, auto mechanics, etc. who are just as "smart" in the general sense as the average HN reader. I obvious…

Sure, plenty are smart, or at least not dumb. But the difference doesn't even have to be so simple as smart/dumb. If your hiring pool consists of two distinct sources, one with an average IQ of 98 (i.e. not dumb), and the other an average IQ of 105, the second source will probably have more hires. Increase the difference (say, to a full standard deviation) and it's only worse for the lower group.

Re: Canary in the Code Mine: Coal miners learning to code

#13

Post by sprkyco »

kolinko wrote: post #4
sprkyco wrote: post #3

After eight years in mining I made the jump to coding. However, my coding quickly changed to infosec. So definitely miners can make this jump. This is highly biased, but I would say that many blue collar workers bring a very different work ethic as compared to other workers in the software industry. Miners especially have a comradery that I have not heard of in other industries. In addition to this 80+ hour work week…

Interesting story. How did you find the transition from an active work style to a static/sitting one? I always say that programmers have it as hard as miners, but it's a different kind of challenge. One is more physical, another mental (not going insane from sitting in front of computer all the time). You have the comparison, What do you think?

Really mining is seen as this hardcore active lifestyle when in reality it is rather sedentary. Typically there are jobs for jr. level positions which are very physically demanding. Afer about 2 years experience most people get "promoted" to driving some sort of heavy machinery. Often these positions are union jobs where the workers can easily dictate the pace at which they work. Typically I could spend 8 hours or more in some sort of seat forklift/haul truck/loader or whatever. This may not be the case in Coal Mines in Kentucky, but as you can tell from the pictures many of the workers in mining are not in peak physical condition.

Even in the positions that were physically demanding your body "adjusts" to the workload and it becomes rather similar to sitting in front of a computer basically you go into periods of "auto-pilot" and then other times it was somewhat mentally demanding.

Most mining operations are heavily automated requiring at least some knowledge of I.ndustrial C.ontrol S.systems ICS/SCADA is somewhat of a programming work flow. If this valve is open turn on this other valve once this sensor is tripped turn off this motor and close this valve. From a very simplistic manner this is similar to binary logic.

At least from what I have experienced infosec is very mentally challenging, but it is not a constant demand there are definitely periods where I am in auto-pilot. The best solution for me having gone to a sedentary work life is to walk to work, drink lots of water at work (make you get up to pee alot) and to take walks at lunch.

Re: Canary in the Code Mine: Coal miners learning to code

#14

Post by socialist_coder »

sprkyco wrote: post #11
socialist_coder wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like your comment and the article in question are completely anecdotal. Sure, a subset of miners can learn to code. You can't argue against that. But, that really means absolutely nothing to the big picture. The real question is, what percentage of the entire out-of-work blue collar worker population can make the jump? I would agree with Bloomberg, it's probably fairly low. But, I might not be fully recognizin…

Absolutely anecdotal. This article nor myself never stated that "the entire out-of-work blue collar worker population" can or even would want to make the jump. Many of these blue collar workers can move into other industries it just so happens that programming is becoming more of a trade skill than an engineering one. There is currently a demand for highly skilled CS engineers. However, the jobs that do not require C…

> Really my "coding" skills have helped me in other areas opening my eyes in new ways to automating my skill set.

That is a good point. People who can program even a little bit have a pretty big advantage over people who can't. In knowledge worker jobs (and in our day to day lives, such as hobbies or DIY), there are plenty of tasks that could be done much easier and better if you know some programming.

> Where the Bloomberg article most failed is stating that they "cannot" learn to code.

Point taken.

Re: Canary in the Code Mine: Coal miners learning to code

#15

Post by user_0001 »

socialist_coder wrote: post #5
sprkyco wrote: post #3

After eight years in mining I made the jump to coding. However, my coding quickly changed to infosec. So definitely miners can make this jump. This is highly biased, but I would say that many blue collar workers bring a very different work ethic as compared to other workers in the software industry. Miners especially have a comradery that I have not heard of in other industries. In addition to this 80+ hour work week…

I feel like your comment and the article in question are completely anecdotal. Sure, a subset of miners can learn to code. You can't argue against that. But, that really means absolutely nothing to the big picture. The real question is, what percentage of the entire out-of-work blue collar worker population can make the jump? I would agree with Bloomberg, it's probably fairly low. But, I might not be fully recognizin…

> Sure, a subset of miners can learn to code.

Anyone can learn to code, it isn't hard what we do. Granted some do push the boundaries, but that is a tiny % of what actual programmers do

Re: Canary in the Code Mine: Coal miners learning to code

#16

Post by xigency »

socialist_coder wrote: post #5
sprkyco wrote: post #3

After eight years in mining I made the jump to coding. However, my coding quickly changed to infosec. So definitely miners can make this jump. This is highly biased, but I would say that many blue collar workers bring a very different work ethic as compared to other workers in the software industry. Miners especially have a comradery that I have not heard of in other industries. In addition to this 80+ hour work week…

I feel like your comment and the article in question are completely anecdotal. Sure, a subset of miners can learn to code. You can't argue against that. But, that really means absolutely nothing to the big picture. The real question is, what percentage of the entire out-of-work blue collar worker population can make the jump? I would agree with Bloomberg, it's probably fairly low. But, I might not be fully recognizin…

I also think you might be overestimating the number of positions in Silicon Valley for groundbreaking programmers or developers. The "rock star" stereotype is pretty weak.

Re: Canary in the Code Mine: Coal miners learning to code

#17

Post by chrstphrhrt »

user_0001 wrote: post #15
socialist_coder wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like your comment and the article in question are completely anecdotal. Sure, a subset of miners can learn to code. You can't argue against that. But, that really means absolutely nothing to the big picture. The real question is, what percentage of the entire out-of-work blue collar worker population can make the jump? I would agree with Bloomberg, it's probably fairly low. But, I might not be fully recognizin…

> Sure, a subset of miners can learn to code. Anyone can learn to code, it isn't hard what we do. Granted some do push the boundaries, but that is a tiny % of what actual programmers do

I agree with this for almost anything too. Yeah there's talent but if you're remotely creative at all, coding, drawing and making music can all be learned by doing.

Re: Canary in the Code Mine: Coal miners learning to code

#18

Post by anonymous30 »

Coal miners could probably "learn to dent" too, but dentists have set it up so dental school is expensive, exclusive, and requires a four-year degree to gain admission. That's why the cost of dental care is soaring and the median salary for dentists in the US is now $140-150k[1] a year. By contrast, the wages of software engineers (sorry, coders) have been flat for decades, despite a supposedly dire "skills gap" that tech companies cite as justification for expanding the H-1B visa program and making "coding" part of public school curricula.

[1] http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/dentist/salary

Re: Canary in the Code Mine: Coal miners learning to code

#19

Post by [deleted] »

sprkyco wrote: post #3

After eight years in mining I made the jump to coding. However, my coding quickly changed to infosec. So definitely miners can make this jump. This is highly biased, but I would say that many blue collar workers bring a very different work ethic as compared to other workers in the software industry. Miners especially have a comradery that I have not heard of in other industries. In addition to this 80+ hour work week…

[deleted]
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