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Benefits of Sarcasm

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Re: Benefits of Sarcasm

#31

Post by jerf »

jkyle wrote: post #8
danso wrote: post #6

One of the few lessons to stick with me from high school English was during the lesson on irony, when a student asked "Is sarcasm the same thing as irony?" and the teacher thought about it for a moment, before responding that, yes, it is, kind of, but it's the lowest form of irony. I really enjoy irony in life and in literature, so I try to avoid sarcasm as to not cheapen the fun of "higher" forms of irony (like fina…

> like finally understanding Alanis Morisette's "Ironic" Would you mind explaining the deeper meaning of Morissette's song?

As a descriptive, not prescriptive, grammarian, the deeper meaning that Morissette's song accidentally has is that there were at least three or four distinct extant definitions of "irony", many people were very sure their definition was universal, and none of those people were right.

It's sort of shocking this five-letter word turned out to have several simultaneous different non-overlapping meanings, with so many people not even realizing the differences in the way other people were using the word. There's probably a PhD thesis in there somewhere. No joke, irony, or sarcasm.

Re: Benefits of Sarcasm

#32

Post by dragonwriter »

danso wrote: post #6

One of the few lessons to stick with me from high school English was during the lesson on irony, when a student asked "Is sarcasm the same thing as irony?" and the teacher thought about it for a moment, before responding that, yes, it is, kind of, but it's the lowest form of irony. I really enjoy irony in life and in literature, so I try to avoid sarcasm as to not cheapen the fun of "higher" forms of irony (like fina…

> One of the few lessons to stick with me from high school English was during the lesson on irony, when a student asked "Is sarcasm the same thing as irony?" and the teacher thought about it for a moment, before responding that, yes, it is, kind of, but it's the lowest form of irony.

Properly speaking, sarcasm often uses verbal irony, but sarcasm does not necessarily involve irony. Though maybe that definition is changing; its not that uncommon to see "sarcasm" used as if it were equivalent to verbal irony.

Re: Benefits of Sarcasm

#33

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

danso wrote: post #21
coldtea wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen tons of people pointing out some non-existent error with Alanis' use of "ironic" in that song. Most of them have this dictionary definition in mind: "the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect." But they seem to forget the other meaning, probably because they never bothered to check the lemma in their dictionary: "a state…

I have to argue against that. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for this secondary meaning: "a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often wryly amusing as a result" . The situation of "ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife" is not "deliberately contrary" to "what one expects ". It may be contrary to what one wants ...but that's not the same thing...o…

And also let us not forget that dictionaries are not authoritative sources for word definitions of living languages, they are historical records. Words mean whatever their users intend. My favourite recent example of this is 'literally' which once meant "actually; without exaggeration or inaccuracy" and has now come to also mean it's direct opposite: "in effect; in substance; very nearly; virtually".

Ironic.

Re: Benefits of Sarcasm

#34

Post by jerf »

rtl49 wrote: post #29
pjc50 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All professional communication demands a certain amount of care and moderation. Not just for humour but for criticism, praise, discerning preferences etc. Use of appropriate humour can greatly improve things but you have to know your audience.

Humor, sure. But sarcasm comes by definition at the expense of an idea or another person. Thus I submit that the article has not adequately supported the argument that sarcasm can be helpful in the workplace.

"But sarcasm comes by definition at the expense of an idea or another person."

Even to the extent that is true, which I could quibble with, the sarcasm can be at the sarcastic one's expense, as a form of self-deprecation, or it could be at the expense of a person not present and one who may not even properly-speaking exist.

Sarcasm at a coworker's expense isn't wrong because it's sarcasm, it would be wrong because any social interaction at a coworker's expense is generally wrong.

Re: Benefits of Sarcasm

#35

Post by yarper »

coldtea wrote: post #20
RKoutnik wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not OP, but here goes: None of the examples in the song are actually ironic (i.e. taking an action with the intention of causing A which actually prevents A [or vise versa]). "Rain on your wedding day" isn't ironic, as "getting married" isn't attempting to prevent rain. However, writing a song that's supposed to be chock-full of ironic things where not a single one actually demonstrates irony IS ironic. So the song i…

> None of the examples in the song are actually ironic. (i.e. taking an action with the intention of causing A which actually prevents A [or vise versa]). Actually most (if not all) of the examples in the song are actually ironic. And the example given above is not the sole definition of irony (but could be an ironic situation). From the dictionary: (a) the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally…

It raining on your wedding day isn't ironic unless you're marrying an umbrella shop owner who has recently gone out of business.

Being stuck without a spoon to stir your tea in a spoon factory would be ironic.

It's like good advice you just can't take? No?

Re: Benefits of Sarcasm

#36

Post by yarper »

kelukelugames wrote: post #24

I've worked at a lot of companies where the devs are incredibly snarky. Most of the people making the jokes are straight, white, and male. I wonder if this is perceived as another barrier to minorities.

I heard that minorities don't understand sarcasm.

Re: Benefits of Sarcasm

#37

Post by brianclements »

This is anecdotal, sure, but I think worth noting. Of my youngest students that I teach, starting around 4 or 5, I've consistently noticed that the most developmentally advanced students in terms of language, patience, and focus are the ones that have very sarcastic and witty conversations with their parents and/or me. They are also always very pleasant to work with (sense of humor!). There are times where I am surprised the student even understands that what's being said isn't literal, but they do get it and will joke back.

I'm convinced this type of rhetoric forces an additional cognitive load on the child's brain that helps with context, perspective, and self-awareness which in my mind, are the absolute most powerful aspects of becoming an intelligent individual. This is sort of the basis of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy as well and is the most important "gateway" concept when teaching anyone anything.

Re: Benefits of Sarcasm

#38

Post by AndrewKemendo »

6stringmerc wrote: post #30

To me, sarcasm is a form of a riddle, albeit one highly dependent on the trust and relationship between the two or more parties involved. A sarcastic statement does not always have to convey a "belittling" or "malicious" overtone, but can be much closer to a maxim, a form of wordplay, a metaphor, or an allegory. Or, in the case of the following Futurama quote, sarcasm can be a container for one of the above literary…

but when sarcasm ace meets sarcasm ace, holy cow it can be some funny material.

Also known as British Humor.

Maybe we should call this a Monty Python scenario.

Re: Benefits of Sarcasm

#39

Post by kelukelugames »

yarper wrote: post #36
kelukelugames wrote: post #24

I've worked at a lot of companies where the devs are incredibly snarky. Most of the people making the jokes are straight, white, and male. I wonder if this is perceived as another barrier to minorities.

I heard that minorities don't understand sarcasm.

I'm referring to brogrammer/jock culture. Don't be so sensitive when people criticize sarcasm. A few women have written about the way some men communicate with each other can be alienating.

Re: Benefits of Sarcasm

#40

Post by yarper »

kelukelugames wrote: post #39
yarper wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard that minorities don't understand sarcasm.

I'm referring to brogrammer/jock culture. Don't be so sensitive when people criticize sarcasm. A few women have written about the way some men communicate with each other can be alienating.

Sarcasm failure
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