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Benefits of Sarcasm

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Re: Benefits of Sarcasm

#11

Post by RKoutnik »

jkyle wrote: post #8
danso wrote: post #6

One of the few lessons to stick with me from high school English was during the lesson on irony, when a student asked "Is sarcasm the same thing as irony?" and the teacher thought about it for a moment, before responding that, yes, it is, kind of, but it's the lowest form of irony. I really enjoy irony in life and in literature, so I try to avoid sarcasm as to not cheapen the fun of "higher" forms of irony (like fina…

> like finally understanding Alanis Morisette's "Ironic" Would you mind explaining the deeper meaning of Morissette's song?

Not OP, but here goes:

None of the examples in the song are actually ironic (i.e. taking an action with the intention of causing A which actually prevents A [or vise versa]). "Rain on your wedding day" isn't ironic, as "getting married" isn't attempting to prevent rain.

However, writing a song that's supposed to be chock-full of ironic things where not a single one actually demonstrates irony IS ironic.

So the song is meta-irony.

Re: Benefits of Sarcasm

#12

Post by drblast »

jkyle wrote: post #8
danso wrote: post #6

One of the few lessons to stick with me from high school English was during the lesson on irony, when a student asked "Is sarcasm the same thing as irony?" and the teacher thought about it for a moment, before responding that, yes, it is, kind of, but it's the lowest form of irony. I really enjoy irony in life and in literature, so I try to avoid sarcasm as to not cheapen the fun of "higher" forms of irony (like fina…

> like finally understanding Alanis Morisette's "Ironic" Would you mind explaining the deeper meaning of Morissette's song?

It's a hit song called "Ironic" that's devoid of irony in its lyrics.

You'd expect the lyrics to be ironic.

Alanis Morissette is either not that smart, or a complete and utter genius.

Re: Benefits of Sarcasm

#14

Post by charlieflowers »

RKoutnik wrote: post #11
jkyle wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> like finally understanding Alanis Morisette's "Ironic" Would you mind explaining the deeper meaning of Morissette's song?

Not OP, but here goes: None of the examples in the song are actually ironic (i.e. taking an action with the intention of causing A which actually prevents A [or vise versa]). "Rain on your wedding day" isn't ironic, as "getting married" isn't attempting to prevent rain. However, writing a song that's supposed to be chock-full of ironic things where not a single one actually demonstrates irony IS ironic. So the song i…

My mind is blown. Thanks.

Re: Benefits of Sarcasm

#15

Post by danso »

jkyle wrote: post #8
danso wrote: post #6

One of the few lessons to stick with me from high school English was during the lesson on irony, when a student asked "Is sarcasm the same thing as irony?" and the teacher thought about it for a moment, before responding that, yes, it is, kind of, but it's the lowest form of irony. I really enjoy irony in life and in literature, so I try to avoid sarcasm as to not cheapen the fun of "higher" forms of irony (like fina…

> like finally understanding Alanis Morisette's "Ironic" Would you mind explaining the deeper meaning of Morissette's song?

It's ironic that her song is named "Ironic" and yet every purported example of irony falls short of being actual irony.

And no I'm not ignoring Occam's razor here...Morissette is a talented songwriter, which likely means she is also a decent student of literary technique...and even if she weren't, what is the statistical probability that _all_ of the dozen or so "ironic" situations that she chose to enumerate in "Ironic" could fall short of irony in exactly the kind of way that annoys the shit out of everyone who knows the actual definition of irony?

(and no, I was not smart or cool enough to understand this at the time of the song's popularity, or even the decade afterward...I'm pretty sure I read this insight off of Reddit or a blog's comment section, which is probably itself an ironic thing)

Re: Benefits of Sarcasm

#16

Post by jkyle »

RKoutnik wrote: post #11
jkyle wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> like finally understanding Alanis Morisette's "Ironic" Would you mind explaining the deeper meaning of Morissette's song?

Not OP, but here goes: None of the examples in the song are actually ironic (i.e. taking an action with the intention of causing A which actually prevents A [or vise versa]). "Rain on your wedding day" isn't ironic, as "getting married" isn't attempting to prevent rain. However, writing a song that's supposed to be chock-full of ironic things where not a single one actually demonstrates irony IS ironic. So the song i…

Ah, situational irony. Nice. Though, I suppose it's ironic whether she intended it to be or not...maybe even more so if unintended.

Re: Benefits of Sarcasm

#18

Post by coldtea »

danso wrote: post #6

One of the few lessons to stick with me from high school English was during the lesson on irony, when a student asked "Is sarcasm the same thing as irony?" and the teacher thought about it for a moment, before responding that, yes, it is, kind of, but it's the lowest form of irony. I really enjoy irony in life and in literature, so I try to avoid sarcasm as to not cheapen the fun of "higher" forms of irony (like fina…

I've seen tons of people pointing out some non-existent error with Alanis' use of "ironic" in that song.

Most of them have this dictionary definition in mind: "the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect."

But they seem to forget the other meaning, probably because they never bothered to check the lemma in their dictionary:

"a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often wryly amusing as a result"

The first case is "being ironic". The second is about the inherent "irony" in certain situations.

That you never seem to find something (e.g. a beer opener) when you need it, and you chance upon it anytime you don't do is a mild example of the latter.

As is getting presented with or chancing upon "ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife".

Re: Benefits of Sarcasm

#19

Post by rtl49 »

Instead of avoiding sarcasm completely in the office, the research suggests sarcasm, used with care and in moderation, can be effectively used and trigger some creative sparks.

Who really has the presence of mind and self control to use sarcasm with "care and moderation" when in the midst of a work-related social interaction? I think this is just a silly extrapolation to draw from the evidence presented.

Sarcasm can be amusing and perhaps useful in satire and social settings where there's no risk of generating animosity between people, but in the workplace where relationships don't necessarily arise from a sense of mutual understanding, I think this article gives us little reason to believe it can do more good than harm.

Re: Benefits of Sarcasm

#20

Post by coldtea »

RKoutnik wrote: post #11
jkyle wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> like finally understanding Alanis Morisette's "Ironic" Would you mind explaining the deeper meaning of Morissette's song?

Not OP, but here goes: None of the examples in the song are actually ironic (i.e. taking an action with the intention of causing A which actually prevents A [or vise versa]). "Rain on your wedding day" isn't ironic, as "getting married" isn't attempting to prevent rain. However, writing a song that's supposed to be chock-full of ironic things where not a single one actually demonstrates irony IS ironic. So the song i…

>None of the examples in the song are actually ironic. (i.e. taking an action with the intention of causing A which actually prevents A [or vise versa]).

Actually most (if not all) of the examples in the song are actually ironic. And the example given above is not the sole definition of irony (but could be an ironic situation).

From the dictionary:

(a) the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect.

(b) a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often wryly amusing as a result.

The "10000 spoons when you all you need is a knife" is obvious with the latter example.

As for the "rain on your wedding day", it fairly obviously presupposes the expectation (of the "stereotypical" woman planning her wedding) that it would be some perfect sunny day.

E.g. imagine a bride to be planning her reception, and after weeks full of summer sun, it pours like crazy in her wedding day ("a state of affairs (...) deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often wryly amusing as a result") -- it's this feeling like the universe is mocking you, like you know, the weather changed on purpose.

Of course a song has to tell those things elliptically, and people expect to see irony either in the form of (a -- most comments I've seen allude to that) or in a blatantly explicit (b).

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