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VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

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Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#571
post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whilst I'm not the OP I'll happily give my thoughts as a not very good Anglican - who embodies the "great Anglican fudge". 1. Offended no. I'll think you're rather rude, the same as if I wrote $manifestDestiny = false. If you know someone you can have banter with them. 2. IT has all sorts of articles of faith. vi versus emacs, I'm weird as I like nano. Religion is a way of living your life, my code is in no way affec…

What I have never understood, is how can you not take the Bible literally and just kind of pick and choice what part to belive or not to believe. How is this process of picking and choiceing from the Bible and 2000 years of Christian history not the same as making up your own morality (as most secularist do). Seems to me, that the only thing 'being Christian' is (outside of the institution), is that you take some mor…

> What I have never understood, is how can you not take the Bible literally and just kind of pick and choice what part to belive or not to believe.

The idea that Christianity is about the Bible is a relatively view of part of the Protestant community that many Christians who don't hold it view as a form of idolatry.

Christianity is, in other models of Christianity, about a personal decision to come to God through Christ; the Bible is a uniquely useful tool in this, in those views, as a collection of works about the relation of God to humanity, and particularly (in the NT) about Christ and his teachings, which, understood properly (which may not be literally for all parts; just as much of Christ's teachings are explicitly parables, much of the rest is often viewed as illuminating metaphor rather than factual history or commands) is understood, in those views, to free of moral error. In many such views (including the long-standing view of the Catholic Church) it is one of the two main sources of the faith, alongside sacred tradition.

The idea that the Bible is the sole source of Christian truth, or that it is entirely literal, are novel and minority opinions within Christianity. (The groups holding them are more relatively prominent in the US, and definitely more political prominent in the US, compared to other Christian groups than they are globally within Christianity, but even so there are quite large segments of American Christianity that don't follow these relatively newfangled approaches.)

> How is this process of picking and choiceing from the Bible and 2000 years of Christian history not the same as making up your own morality

Everyone is using their conscience to make their own decisions about morality, even literalists. That they choose to accept what someone tells them the canon is (about which there are disagreements among Christians -- and the canon favored by literalists is, like literalism itself, a recent change from the historical canon), and to accept that someone tells them the canon must be approached literally, and to accept the authority of a particular version or translation of the canon to be taken literally, and to then either choose their own or choose to take someone else's guidance on how to read the amibiguities are contradictions that arise when the text is viewed literally -- all of those are choices. Its kind of dangerous to think that the decision to delegate accept someone else's word for how to make these choices stops them from being choices.

Christianity, whether with or without literalism, doesn't evade the need to make decisions about morality.

> Seems to me, that the only thing 'being Christian' is (outside of the institution), is that you take some more of your morality from the Bible compared to all other books.

Except for those holding to a rather extreme version of the (also new) doctrine of sola scriptura, Christian's don't generally believe that books (whether one or many) are the sole source of morals.

> Why not just go all the way and look at all books and history to make up your own morality?

What stops someone from being Christian who considers all sources (not just books) in informing their conscience. Note that neither the Nicene nor Apostle's Creed -- generally held by mainstream Christians as the uniting features of Christianity -- makes more than a passing reference to Scripture (and that only in regard to the alignment between it and Christ's Passion.)

What keeps someone Christian -- or fails to, if it withers -- is their belief in God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Trinity, not their dedication to a book.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#572

Religion is a smoke screen. Does it matter if you chop bits off your kids "because a book told me to" or "because my mom told me to"? All religions are silly ridiculous relics. Let's stop talking about them. The problem is the culture as a whole. Does it work? Or does it not work? The way to know if a culture works is to look at migration patterns. People leave cultures that don't work and go to better cultures. But…

The most important lesson to learn from all this is that so long as we live in a world where grownups can publicly use religious beliefs as a justification for serious decisions, we will also have to live with other people with guns using religion to rationalize their crazy actions, too. We simply have no grounds on which to tell them they're wrong.

The solution is, as you say, to stop talking about them.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#573
post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IS = an ideological network of individuals hiding among civilian populations across the globe US = an nation state with an identifiable military subjected to rule of law >and both sides are very clearly not very precise in who they actually target (the bombing on Doctor's Without Border, anyone?). Both sides cause tons of civilian casualties For better or worse the US is operating on intelligence specifically designe…

Even if the US military is subject to the "rule of law" (which is another argument), how does that in any way excuse or lessen any atrocities it commits? I try hard to be open-minded, but that is one commonly-expressed view that deeply disturbs me.

>how does that in any way excuse or lessen any atrocities it commits?

Rule of law does not excuse or lessen atrocities, it defines them. Moreover, the laws of war are specifically designed to lessen/avoid atrocities by limiting: 1. When a nation-state may engage in the use of armed force, and 2. How a nation-state may actually use armed force.

Having an open mind, I ask you to look within and ask whether the US is specifically targeting civilians, or has simply targeted military actors hiding among civilian populations? No matter what you answer, you must acknowledge IS is responsible for planning/executing military style attacks against civilians specifically.

We can agree to disagree, certainly there is nothing wrong with an all life is sacred approach, but you should not feel deeply disturbed that the law distinguishes between responding to a military attack with the use of force targeted at those most responsible and a non-state actor engaging in terrorist/quasi-military attacks against civilian populations?

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#574
post #516

Religion is a smoke screen. Does it matter if you chop bits off your kids "because a book told me to" or "because my mom told me to"? All religions are silly ridiculous relics. Let's stop talking about them. The problem is the culture as a whole. Does it work? Or does it not work? The way to know if a culture works is to look at migration patterns. People leave cultures that don't work and go to better cultures. But…

>All religions are silly ridiculous relics. Let's stop talking about them. You can't actually reliably say this without first going through every religion and telling us how ridiculous you find it. But I'm not really bothered about every religion. Out of interest, what's ridiculous about Buddhism, and how are you going to quantify the ridiculousness? Your argument doesn't work as well with Buddhism. It works to an ex…

Litmus test: does it make any supernatural claims? Yes? Silly, ridiculous relic.

Buddhism? Yes. Silly, ridiculous relic.

Please don't bore us with the usual equivocating about how Buddhism is different, and complex, highly personal, etc.

Are there helpful aspects to Buddhist beliefs? Maybe. But it's still Bronze Age philosophy with plenty of supernatural claptrap mixed in. I'm not aware of any useful aspects of Buddhism that don't have a purely secular equivalent.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't France still collecting some form of colonial tax from African countries?

I'm aware of something called the Franc CFA, but that's not a tax...

Here's the link to a Quora discussion. It is beyond my understanding.

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-14-African-countries-a...

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#576
post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that is not the same as saying that people should be sent back to war zones. "In the region", you can choose whether to send them to: 1) Turkey, an increasingly-authoritarian regime which is already overflowing with millions of refugees, making money with the fanatics and holding mainstream cultural values that tend to despise people from Syria/Kurdistan/Iraq; 2) Lebanon, a country where refugees from other conflic…

The right answer? Kill Assad and help the people take back Syria. We should have done it three years ago before much of the moderate resistance was killed but it still needs doing. And as for your Israel jab, they're better to the Palestinians than the Arab states in the area are. And none of the Israelis I've talked to seem to have inherently racist beliefs but many of the recently middle-eastern Arabs do. (About th…

Right? Just like killing Saddam and Gadafi stabilized the region. I'm sure nothing bad would happen. It's not like something worse than Al Quaida can happen again.

Europe fully deserves the migrant crisis. It went into Middle East guns blazing, and expects to come out of it unscathed.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#577
post #430
post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the tendency to label them as extremists is a step in the right direction. I prefer "extremist" alone to "Islamic extremist", because in the latter the association remains, but let's be honest that association has been cemented by the media already, it's not going away. I am not a Muslim, but live in a Western country with a lot of friends who are and can see the identity struggles they have, wanting to assim…

OK, I can see more clearly where you are coming from now. Thank you for clarifying. To reiterate, I don't think it's contradictory to be honest about the source of this terror whilst at the same time supporting, nay demanding, the full safety and civil liberties of muslim citizens.

If we say the source are religious extremists who have little in common with the majority of that religion, I agree with you. However, I'm getting numerous downvotes so perhaps mine is a minority viewpoint.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#578
post #64

I work with a Muslim and I'm a Christian. Since we are both very conservative, I actually have more in common with him than with my secular coworkers and friends. Unfortunately we both work remotely and live several hundred miles from each other. I think we could be good friends if we lived closer. One thing I have learned talking with my Muslim coworker is that, just like in Christianity, there are many divisions an…

Of course it's not "all Muslisms". But those who claim "it's only the terrorists" or "it's all politics" do not grasp the scope of the problem, ie that globally speaking, a significant number of adherents of Islam hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society. If you naively extrapolate from the 2013 Pew Poll The World’s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society (which in principle represents nations with a tot…

To many patriots in the United States during the American Revolution, Catholicism was an evil religion whose precepts were fundamentally incompatible with democracy. Yet I don't think very many Americans would concur today.

Religious dogma is as much shaped by the current cultural norms as it shapes them, something that many religious leaders are loathe to admit.

Your statement reminds me scarily of something I read relatively recently in a book by a conservative Christian author. The sentence, to paraphrase, was along the lines of "I'm not saying all Muslims are extremists, but the threat of Islamic terrorism is so high we should kick them all out to be safe."

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#579

I work with a Muslim and I'm a Christian. Since we are both very conservative, I actually have more in common with him than with my secular coworkers and friends. Unfortunately we both work remotely and live several hundred miles from each other. I think we could be good friends if we lived closer. One thing I have learned talking with my Muslim coworker is that, just like in Christianity, there are many divisions an…

You might find this interesting reading. Long article but a pretty easy read.

http://waitbutwhy.com/2014/09/muhammad-isis-iraqs-full-story...

Follow this with an interview with Reza Aslan on CNN which the anchors fail repeatedly at trying to digest things down to a soundbite.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzusSqcotDw

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#580
post #492
post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for a measured and informative response. I could add to your list reams of links of where 'we' have behaved badly. I suspect you too have a bulging bookmark folder like I do of hypocritical western behaviour. However the battle against militant jihadi extremists is one issue where 'we' are completely in the right. Completely. No need to apologise for past wrongs. If we have regarded life as too cheap in the pa…

This is a silly viewpoint. I say this not out of some white-guilt self flagellation, but because if we hold these silly Star Wars level beliefs about Islamic extremism, we will not be able to effectively fight them. Young people join ISIS not because they are "evil" (what, are they Darth Vader?). They join because ISIS makes a compelling case that the world would be a better place if it was rid of western domination.…

> Young people join ISIS not because they are "evil" (what, are they Darth Vader?). They join because ISIS makes a compelling case that the world would be a better place if it was rid of western domination.

I will not speak about young people joining ISIS, but I've known people who joined or wanted to join the military strictly to kill. These folks exist. You give them a strong ideological or philosophical reason to kill for and it brings in some of those sitting on the fence. In the case of the US military, I've not known anyone who made it through bootcamp with these attitudes (though I'm sure plenty have). They actively weed out these folks because, while their main mission involves killing, psychopaths aren't usually good soldiers. Groups like ISIS have no qualms in this regard, so these attitudes will survive their equivalent of basic training.

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