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VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

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Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#461

Post by noobermin »

rmc wrote: post #318
lars wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the high terrorist attack output of Islamists vs other non-Islam subscribers I wonder if this is really true though. Some statistics: https://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/terrorism-20... While Anders Breivik was shooting kids on the island in Norway, the Norwegian media were speculating that it was most likely perpetrated by muslim extremists. Even though we've historically had way more examples of terro…

Breivik wrote a manifesto claiming he was doing it to support Christianity. And yet people don't call him a Christian terrorist.

To be fair, Breivik was an individual, while ISIS is a movement.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#462

Post by redial »

Cyph0n wrote: post #437
redial wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the message starts with a private 'revelation', not to me but to others, that I have to unquestionably accept giving some other mammal total control over my mind or be tortured forever, I don't need to be told anymore. It's insulting, childish, it belongs in the infancy of our species and it needs to be outgrown, never mind how 'good' it makes you feel inside.

What private revelation? Go to your nearest bookstore and pick up the Quran. Problem solved. "Other mammal" here refers to what exactly? As for punishment, that happens when you intentionally deny the existence of the Creator, even when given the access to His word and religion. Islam teaches us that human beings are born pure and good by default, unlike other religions. Suppose you lived your life on a remote island…

Other mammals as in the ones who use religious texts to get 'power' in the real world. Politicians, military leaders, jihadists, and sadly even teachers and parents.

And was the Quran not a revelation from 'God' only to Muhammad? If he wants to believe it, fine, why should anybody else? Oh yes, eternal torture. It is childish to be told a story and believe it true only because they threaten you.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#463

Post by baddox »

cygx wrote: post #64
iamthepieman wrote: post #37

I work with a Muslim and I'm a Christian. Since we are both very conservative, I actually have more in common with him than with my secular coworkers and friends. Unfortunately we both work remotely and live several hundred miles from each other. I think we could be good friends if we lived closer. One thing I have learned talking with my Muslim coworker is that, just like in Christianity, there are many divisions an…

Of course it's not "all Muslisms". But those who claim "it's only the terrorists" or "it's all politics" do not grasp the scope of the problem, ie that globally speaking, a significant number of adherents of Islam hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society. If you naively extrapolate from the 2013 Pew Poll The World’s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society (which in principle represents nations with a tot…

What do you suggest the rest of society should do about people who hold views which are (supposedly) incompatible with a free society?

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#464

Post by baddox »

jacquesm wrote: post #70
cygx wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's not "all Muslisms". But those who claim "it's only the terrorists" or "it's all politics" do not grasp the scope of the problem, ie that globally speaking, a significant number of adherents of Islam hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society. If you naively extrapolate from the 2013 Pew Poll The World’s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society (which in principle represents nations with a tot…

> a significant number of adherents of Islam hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society. Significant numbers of non-Islam subscribers hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society too. All these people have at least one thing in common: they would like to change society to suit their ends. And a very large number of people in my country would happily throw back those fleeing the carnage to become v…

And notice that when the commenter says "open society," that really just means the type of society that he or she desires. It's phrased in such a way that it sounds like an objective uncontroversial description of a society that all "good" people desire, but alas such an objective description does not exist.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#465

Post by cookiecaper »

gonzo wrote: post #179
cygx wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's not "all Muslisms". But those who claim "it's only the terrorists" or "it's all politics" do not grasp the scope of the problem, ie that globally speaking, a significant number of adherents of Islam hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society. If you naively extrapolate from the 2013 Pew Poll The World’s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society (which in principle represents nations with a tot…

> > a significant number of adherents of Islam hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society. A significant number of adherents of Christianity also hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society.

We could just say most people "hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society". Look at all the "enlightened free thinkers" in this thread who want it to be illegal to state something they adamantly disbelieve ("hate speech"). They are apparently not aware that the same laws could be brutally used against them, should they ever find themselves disagreeing with the predominant belief system (and newsflash, enlightened free thinkers: a lot of your beliefs already do).

The problem is that the term "open society" has no objective meaning, so you can use it to exclude any set of beliefs that you don't like, up to and including anarchists.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#466

Post by gotchange »

toyg wrote: post #429
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>his main motto is 'close the borders' I'm not out of touch enough to have missed this opinion. But that is not the same as saying that people should be sent back to war zones. We don't have borders with Syria. But you are right that I don't know specifically what that Dutch politician actually demands other than closing the borders.

> that is not the same as saying that people should be sent back to war zones. "In the region", you can choose whether to send them to: 1) Turkey, an increasingly-authoritarian regime which is already overflowing with millions of refugees, making money with the fanatics and holding mainstream cultural values that tend to despise people from Syria/Kurdistan/Iraq; 2) Lebanon, a country where refugees from other conflic…

We should then pressure the Gulf countries to chip in and take in some of those refugees esp. those who hold more conservative and traditionalist views because they'd feel more at home there and not have to experience culture shocks while in Europe since some of them are coming even from rural and undeveloped areas of Syria or Iraq.

Also, I'd like to point out that there's no Palestinian camps in Egypt that I know of but good on you seeing through all the BS that Sisi is just another ruthless and bloodthirsty dictator who is by the way a closeted Islamist who holds equally despicable fundamentalist views but he's good enough so far in hiding them under the veneer of reformist moderate leadership.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#467

Post by baddox »

crusso wrote: post #151
jacquesm wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a significant number of adherents of Islam hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society. Significant numbers of non-Islam subscribers hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society too. All these people have at least one thing in common: they would like to change society to suit their ends. And a very large number of people in my country would happily throw back those fleeing the carnage to become v…

Significant numbers of non-Islam subscribers hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society too If that's your contention then you'd need to account for the high terrorist attack output of Islamists vs other non-Islam subscribers.

That probably has something to do with the fact that there has been lots of military action, regime changes, etc. in countries with large Muslim populations over the past few decades. That's exactly the sort of thing I would expect to cause the affected people to radicalize.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#468

Post by baddox »

tome wrote: post #221
jacquesm wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an open door, I don't need to kick it in. It simply revolves around how you define terrorist and that horse has been beaten to death by now, I really don't see any reason to revive it just to beat it to death again.

Wow, that's a complete cop out. Can you come up with any definition of "terrorist" where significant numbers of the one billion Chinese are commiting terrorist atrocities abroad, for example?

Can you come up with a definition where significant numbers of any group of a billion people qualify?

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#469

Post by baddox »

will_brown wrote: post #344
Natanael_L wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Why can't they be the same thing, just in different contexts? On both sides there's people who believe the enemy will destroy the world, and believes in a particular ideal, and who sends out armies to achieve their goals, and both sides are very clearly not very precise in who they actually target (the bombing on Doctor's Without Border, anyone?). Both sides cause tons of civilian casualties, both refuse to apol…

IS = an ideological network of individuals hiding among civilian populations across the globe US = an nation state with an identifiable military subjected to rule of law >and both sides are very clearly not very precise in who they actually target (the bombing on Doctor's Without Border, anyone?). Both sides cause tons of civilian casualties For better or worse the US is operating on intelligence specifically designe…

Even if the US military is subject to the "rule of law" (which is another argument), how does that in any way excuse or lessen any atrocities it commits? I try hard to be open-minded, but that is one commonly-expressed view that deeply disturbs me.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#470

Post by wordbank »

MrPatan wrote: post #400

Religion is a smoke screen. Does it matter if you chop bits off your kids "because a book told me to" or "because my mom told me to"? All religions are silly ridiculous relics. Let's stop talking about them. The problem is the culture as a whole. Does it work? Or does it not work? The way to know if a culture works is to look at migration patterns. People leave cultures that don't work and go to better cultures. But…

> All religions are silly ridiculous relics. Let's stop talking about them.

Why generalize? How about the core parts of Buddhism that are literally a checklist on how to calm your mind. And the same methods are used by modern psychotherapy as "cognitive behavioural therapy" and "mindfulness".

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