VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks • Hacker News Board

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#531

Post by iamthepieman » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 6:31 PM UTC

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #520

emilecantin wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's quite simple, really: «Love one another». This is THE thing that Jesus said we should do, and it takes precedence over anything else. For example, sure, some minor book in the Bible might say that's it's kinda bad to be gay, but hating other people that disrespect a minor recommendation is contrary to the most important commandment.

I struggle to grasp this concept when USA, a very Christian county, doesn't seem to have policies that follow loving each other. Income inequality is rising and there is plenty of argument on who can marry whom, etc. It's very strange that a religion founded on love has not been in some military conflict more than a decade or two.

I'm Not sure exactly what you're saying here. (I understand that perhaps English is not your native language)

There are many christian churches and religious groups that function more as social organizations than religious ones. I wish they organized around something besides religion as it would make it less confusing but I don't really have a problem with this. I just don't expect the same views and behaviors from them as I would from myself or from people who take their religious beliefs more seriously.

Most political leaders in the United States these days make only the most feeble attempts to convince constituents of their "faith". So it should not surprise you that this country is not a beacon of Christian values in policy or actions.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#532

Post by mbrock » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 6:34 PM UTC

woah wrote: post #492

tezza wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for a measured and informative response. I could add to your list reams of links of where 'we' have behaved badly. I suspect you too have a bulging bookmark folder like I do of hypocritical western behaviour. However the battle against militant jihadi extremists is one issue where 'we' are completely in the right. Completely. No need to apologise for past wrongs. If we have regarded life as too cheap in the pa…

This is a silly viewpoint. I say this not out of some white-guilt self flagellation, but because if we hold these silly Star Wars level beliefs about Islamic extremism, we will not be able to effectively fight them. Young people join ISIS not because they are "evil" (what, are they Darth Vader?). They join because ISIS makes a compelling case that the world would be a better place if it was rid of western domination.…

I don't know why people in general join ISIS but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of it does in fact have to do with an "evil" appeal. Darth Vader made some good arguments, too.

People love this kind of fantastical good/evil stuff. Who's good and who's evil depends on what side you're on, of course. Like that Russian book I heard about that's a rewrite of Lord of the Rings from Sauron's perspective.

Look at what games boys and young men so often choose to play. When I was seven I was out in the forests with my friends with fake guns. It was really fun. Then I put down childish things and got into Counter-Strike. I loved playing the terrorists. The AK-47 was just great and the avatars looked pretty cool.

This is kind of off-the-cuff sociological speculation or something, but: religion is a very powerful aesthetic phenomenon. In combination with war, you get a combination of thrills, ecstasy, excitement, danger, meaning, and hope that's hard to beat, for certain personality types.

Look at the ISIS propaganda videos. They're not laying out a rational strategy for improving the world. They're presenting an aesthetic image, a very masculine one, full of cars and guns and desert missions and fighting and stuff. Combined with the pious literalist faith that also has its own appeal. They do offer a hope for a future world, a glorious Islamic caliphate and whatnot, probably the deserts will bloom and peace will reign and Muslim Jesus will rise from the dead.

They say things like "Are you satisfied with your shitty life in suburban London or Paris? Do you like the way people look at you? Do you feel alive? Do you love your life? ...no? Come here. We not only have an exciting virile lifestyle full of action and terrible sublime beauty, but also we are the true messengers of the true prophet and God is on our side."

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#533

Post by ctdonath » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 6:34 PM UTC

jjoe wrote: post #422

ctdonath wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poor example. Christianity had nothing to do with that civil war. For reasons incomprehensible to most (as is also currently the case with Shiite vs Sunni), the Hutus and Tutsis had a deep cultural mutual hatred, and eventually acted on it to the slaughter of one side. There was nothing about the motivations related to a [mis-]representation of Christianity. Near as most can tell, Islam _is_ a central factor in recen…

Although Rwanda is among the most Christian countries in Africa, in the 1994 genocide, church buildings became the primary killing grounds. To explain why so many Christians participated in the violence, this book looks at the history of Christian engagement in Rwanda and then turns to a rich body of original national and local-level research to argue that Rwanda’s churches have consistently allied themselves with th…

I read that as reinforcing my point. Christianity was not a motivating factor, ethnic politics was; abuse of houses of worship in any culture is not unusual throughout history, subverting the trappings of righteousness to promote evil. How that promotion was manifest, I don't know; no indication AFAIK of any equivalent of "Allah Akbar" being declared during the slaughter.

Beware the rationale of "X had its bad moments, so you can't criticize Y." The current question remains: how to draw a line between the "good" and "bad" actors? lines are being drawn, and better to help draw them well before people act on them being drawn badly.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#534

Post by redial » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 6:34 PM UTC

sammydavis wrote: post #525

redial wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other mammals as in the ones who use religious texts to get 'power' in the real world. Politicians, military leaders, jihadists, and sadly even teachers and parents. And was the Quran not a revelation from 'God' only to Muhammad? If he wants to believe it, fine, why should anybody else? Oh yes, eternal torture. It is childish to be told a story and believe it true only because they threaten you.

What you are describing as a private revelation from god is not different than the ones in christianity, such as seeing that burning bush.

Of course, that is why most religions are wrong in the same way.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#535

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 6:36 PM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #533

jjoe wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although Rwanda is among the most Christian countries in Africa, in the 1994 genocide, church buildings became the primary killing grounds. To explain why so many Christians participated in the violence, this book looks at the history of Christian engagement in Rwanda and then turns to a rich body of original national and local-level research to argue that Rwanda’s churches have consistently allied themselves with th…

I read that as reinforcing my point. Christianity was not a motivating factor, ethnic politics was; abuse of houses of worship in any culture is not unusual throughout history, subverting the trappings of righteousness to promote evil. How that promotion was manifest, I don't know; no indication AFAIK of any equivalent of "Allah Akbar" being declared during the slaughter. Beware the rationale of "X had its bad moment…

[deleted]

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#536

Post by senekerim » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 6:36 PM UTC

toyg wrote: post #429

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>his main motto is 'close the borders' I'm not out of touch enough to have missed this opinion. But that is not the same as saying that people should be sent back to war zones. We don't have borders with Syria. But you are right that I don't know specifically what that Dutch politician actually demands other than closing the borders.

> that is not the same as saying that people should be sent back to war zones. "In the region", you can choose whether to send them to: 1) Turkey, an increasingly-authoritarian regime which is already overflowing with millions of refugees, making money with the fanatics and holding mainstream cultural values that tend to despise people from Syria/Kurdistan/Iraq; 2) Lebanon, a country where refugees from other conflic…

To be fair, Armenia has taken in tens of thousands of Syrian refugees. It's not covered anywhere in the news (doesn't fit any convenient narrative, like the one you outlined), but as far as I recall it's one of the top hosts relative to population size. Can't find the source ATM

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#537

Post by DanBC » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 6:40 PM UTC

senekerim wrote: post #536

toyg wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that is not the same as saying that people should be sent back to war zones. "In the region", you can choose whether to send them to: 1) Turkey, an increasingly-authoritarian regime which is already overflowing with millions of refugees, making money with the fanatics and holding mainstream cultural values that tend to despise people from Syria/Kurdistan/Iraq; 2) Lebanon, a country where refugees from other conflic…

To be fair, Armenia has taken in tens of thousands of Syrian refugees. It's not covered anywhere in the news (doesn't fit any convenient narrative, like the one you outlined), but as far as I recall it's one of the top hosts relative to population size. Can't find the source ATM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_the_Syrian_Civil_W...

Armenia estimated 17,000

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#538

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 6:43 PM UTC

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #28

StavrosK wrote: post #2

Isn't it sad that this has to be said at all? "Hey, not every adherent of a religion supports killing innocent people of a different religion". It'd be like us having to apologize for the Crusades. Besides, the hits were driven by politics, religion is just a facade.

> It'd be like us having to apologize for the Crusades. Though It's probably something Western Christians should still bear in mind when talking to or about muslims.

[deleted]

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#539

Post by Natanael_L » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 6:44 PM UTC

tome wrote: post #296

Natanael_L wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Why can't they be the same thing, just in different contexts? On both sides there's people who believe the enemy will destroy the world, and believes in a particular ideal, and who sends out armies to achieve their goals, and both sides are very clearly not very precise in who they actually target (the bombing on Doctor's Without Border, anyone?). Both sides cause tons of civilian casualties, both refuse to apol…

This kind of moral equivocation can only come if you really have no clue about the reality of these conflicts, in my opinion. It's one of the great weaknesses of our civilisation that we are "too broad-minded to take own own side in a quarrel" (to quote a phrase I just learned today). In the large, one side wants to impose rule based on beliefs about what an omnipotent sky person wants and is willing to sacrifice inn…

> The other side wants to propagate individual liberty and democracy and takes great lengths to avoid civilian casualties

This is why you're wrong. No, the leaders (whether it is the politicians or the military command) don't care about civilian casualties unless there's large vocal resistance.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#540

Post by crusso » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 6:44 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #493

crusso wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US citizens are at greater risk of harm from police officers How is that a fair or even interesting comparison, though? Islamist terrorists aren't killing people ostensibly engaged in criminal acts. Islamist terrorists aren't otherwise expected to be agents of the government charged with using physical force to protect the laws. Islamist terrorists target innocents in a deliberate effort to maximize damage and loss o…

> but even then you have to look at who the FBI and other law enforcement agencies are watching to understand that Christian extremists are individual actors who target specifics like abortion providers. No, they aren't. Christian extremists include organized extremist groups, including those that have been behind or sheltered abortion clinic attacks (e.g., Army of God), and also much of the militia movement (large s…

I don't disagree with the fact that there are and have been domestic Christian extremists. I was specifically responding to DanBC's claim that US citizens are at GREATER risk from the police and Christian terrorists.

What information sources do you follow that indicate that Christian extremism is even remotely as great a threat as Islamic extremism? When I look at the FBI most wanted terrorists lists and other sources, I see a complete dominance by Islamic terrorist groups.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2015/10/23/fbi-c...

Contrary to your claim that the DoJ is downplaying domestic terrorism, I've noted several efforts by the administration to "talk up" domestic terrorism and downplay Islamic terrorism - then when pressed on who these domestic terrorists are, administration officials have been at a loss to name any specifics.