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VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

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Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#301

Post by coldtea »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #237
jacquesm wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a significant number of adherents of Islam hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society. Significant numbers of non-Islam subscribers hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society too. All these people have at least one thing in common: they would like to change society to suit their ends. And a very large number of people in my country would happily throw back those fleeing the carnage to become v…

>And a very large number of people in my country would happily throw back those fleeing the carnage to become victims of that 40% That statement really doesn't make much sense at all. People are fleeing a war, among them people from the 40% and the 60% group alike. And no one in Europe is advocating throwing anyone back into a war zone. Many want the refugees stay somewhere in the region instead of letting them come…

>There is no 40% group of the population in Europe that holds views that are anywhere near as disgusting as that.

Well, only 50+ years ago there was an over 40% population in the US that thought that blacks were inferior and shouldn't sit in the same restaurants/hotels/schools with whites. In fact it was even law in some states.

Beyond that, there were about all major western countries, France, UK, Belgium, Holland, Italy, etc, that had other people enslaved in colonies up until the sixties. 2+ billion people had their countries managed by foreigners, and their fellow countrymen tortured and executed when asking freedom (and sometimes, just killed for fun).

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/apr/18/britain-destroyed-...

http://www.monbiot.com/2005/12/27/how-britain-denies-its-hol...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/inside-france...

http://www.theplaidzebra.com/human-zoos-one-europes-shameful...

Heck, even in Paris itself, the French police famously killed over 200 Algerians marching for their country's freedom in a single day in 1961 -- and it took them 40+ years, after all officials were dead or too old, to finally admit it and ask for an apology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961

These countries also thought that they should have a say as to whether a remote country should have this or that president or regime -- to the point of toppling legitimate regimes, bombing those countries, coming to assist one party or another in a civil war, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...

There have been over 2 million victims of those interventions in the last 10 years alone. Every despicable hit by muslim terrorists (and we all agree its despicable) was met with 4-5 orders of magnitude many more innocent victims on those countries.

If some muslim country managed to harm 1/100 that number of, say, Texans, where would the percentages of "tolerance" and "acceptance" towards them go?

We should condemn all violence -- not forgive the one that has better PR and is done by cool looking people who have the same background as us.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#302

Post by DanBC »

crusso wrote: post #151
jacquesm wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a significant number of adherents of Islam hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society. Significant numbers of non-Islam subscribers hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society too. All these people have at least one thing in common: they would like to change society to suit their ends. And a very large number of people in my country would happily throw back those fleeing the carnage to become v…

Significant numbers of non-Islam subscribers hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society too If that's your contention then you'd need to account for the high terrorist attack output of Islamists vs other non-Islam subscribers.

US citizens are at greater risk of harm from police officers (who kill about 1,000 people per year) than from Islamist terrorists.

US citizens are at greater risk of far right or Christian extremists than they are of Islamist extremists - see the numbers of people injured and killed by various mass shooters or clinic bombings.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#303

Post by tome »

jon-wood wrote: post #249
tome wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, that's a complete cop out. Can you come up with any definition of "terrorist" where significant numbers of the one billion Chinese are commiting terrorist atrocities abroad, for example?

Can you come up with one where significant numbers of the billions of Muslims in the world are committing terrorist atrocities abroad? The vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace, just like everybody else. To your question though, the French resistance during the second world war could easily have been called terrorists, as could the American revolutionary army.

If you want to consider the list (that's as long as my arm) of Islamic terror attacks in the 21st century "insignificant", then that's on you, I guess.

It's absolutely not inconsistent to hold the view that Islamically-inspired terror is a big problem for the world, whilst simultaneously holding the view that the vast majority of muslims are peaceful. I don't know why anyone would think otherwise.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#305

Post by crusso »

steveklabnik wrote: post #276
crusso wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Significant numbers of non-Islam subscribers hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society too If that's your contention then you'd need to account for the high terrorist attack output of Islamists vs other non-Islam subscribers.

Not Jacques, but from a few months back: "White Supremacists More Dangerous To America Than Foreign Terrorists, Study Says" http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/24/domestic-terrorism-... > At least 48 people have been killed stateside by right-wing > extremists in the 14 years since since the September 11 > attacks -- almost twice as many as were killed by > self-identified jihadists in that time. As Jacques says, "…

Are you actually going to put some lone nut jobs here and there on the same level as organized and determined jihadists? If so, you need to include the tens of thousands of murdered people that ISIS has been responsible for. You'll need to include the Russian jet that was blown up, the attack in Paris, and all those killed by al-qaeda on 9/11, etc.

You'll also need to explain why the FBI terrorist list doesn't show that the government has a similar concern for white supremacists.

https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/wanted_terrorists

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#306

Post by copperred »

rtpg wrote: post #235
gotchange wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they would like to change society to suit their ends. What would be those means employed by non-Muslim radicals to effect social change? I'm inclined to say that urban warfare and terrorizing an entire population with open aggression tactics are not among them.

Wasn't there that guy in Santa Barbara who shot a bunch of women because he hated them? The Waco seige? No one has a monopoly on violence for attempting social change Though here that's beside the point. The Paris attacks were not because France is a free country, but because France was bombing Daesh. This is more like the Lockerbie bombing than like some sort of "clash of civilizations" that so many are implying

"The Paris attacks were...because France was bombing Daesh."

What a disgusting rationalization of the indiscriminate killing of innocent people.

"An online statement said eight militants armed with explosive belts and automatic weapons attacked carefully chosen targets in the "capital of adultery and vice," including a soccer stadium where France was playing Germany, and the Bataclan concert hall, where an American rock band was playing, and "hundreds of apostates were attending an adulterous party.""

Oops, they were actually "carefully chosen targets". That's better.

[1] http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/isis-statement-france-to...

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#307

Post by arca_vorago »

tremon wrote: post #255
arca_vorago wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intersting, thanks for the link, but it doesnt really answer the question of exactly how many strikes did it participate in on Syria, and what were the death tolls? (Numbers, not percentages)

"France had until now only struck Islamic State targets in neighboring Iraq" So, zero. They participated in 3% of the air strikes in Iraq, 0% in Syria.

As of Sep 27, what about since then? Either way, thank you for the information.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#308

Post by Arnt »

cygx wrote: post #286
Arnt wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. I live in a city with a considerable number of muslims and a considerable number of apostates. Isn't that the kind of place where you'd expect apostates to be killed, if anywhere?

Isn't that the kind of place where you'd expect apostates to be killed, if anywhere? Not necessarily, no. Support for murdering apostates can be low in countries with a majority Muslim population (Albania, Bosnia, Kosovo, Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan are all in the low single-digit percentage range, it's at 8% in Turkey), and the figures for minority Muslim communities in western countries might be comparably low. Also…

You're down from "40%" to single examples. Time to stop worrying ;)

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#309

Post by alvarosm »

jacquesm wrote: post #268
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>his main motto is 'close the borders' I'm not out of touch enough to have missed this opinion. But that is not the same as saying that people should be sent back to war zones. We don't have borders with Syria. But you are right that I don't know specifically what that Dutch politician actually demands other than closing the borders.

If it were up to Geert Wilders we'd be going around with a color chart in shades of brown and a burning Koran to figure out who we should kick out and who is allowed to stay.

And if it were up to you you'd turn your country into a third world shithole. Just a similarly bigoted fact.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#310

Post by abc_lisper »

0xFFC wrote: post #159
omginternets wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I respectfully (and partially) disagree. The invasion of Iraq was stupid, reckless and selfish. It was a for-profit war that destabilized the region and allowed ISIS to take on its present form. I'll have you remember that France staunchly opposed this war. Now the US and the brits have left us with a veritable cesspool, and we're bearing the brunt of the consequences. This isn't a liberation attempt or a preemptive…

Am pretty angry about what is going on in world , so if you felt insulted , I am so sorry , and You should understand I don't want to insult you or any other person specifically,But I want insult Ideologies pretty badly. As person who LIVES in heart of middle east (Iran) and I have seen shia militant from very close(I know people who works in IRGC),You are completely and pure wrong , do you know what would generate a…

^ This rocks. I always wondered why I don't hear from liberals from Middle East on the forums on these sensitive topics. Ask your friends to come out here and comment. Talking openly like this will do a lot of good

- People here will realize you are normal too

-People here will understand your perspective

Don't bottle it up and 'splode once, cause that confirms their world view.

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