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Why do we still not know what's inside the pyramids?

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Re: Why do we still not know what's inside the pyramids?

#71

Post by protomyth »

lisper wrote: post #68
protomyth wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All Seventh-day Adventist are NOT young-earth creationists.

That may be, but it is official church doctrine: http://www.adventist.org/en/beliefs/humanity/creation/ "God has revealed in Scripture the authentic and historical account of His creative activity. He created the universe, and in a recent six-day creation the Lord made “the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them” and rested on the seventh day."

Yes, they quote the bible. Yes, many Christian churches quote the same text and call it the same. No, it does not mean all Seventh Day Adventists are young earth creationists.

Re: Why do we still not know what's inside the pyramids?

#72

Post by lisper »

protomyth wrote: post #70
lisper wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually we don't have nearly enough uncertainty and doubt. http://www.adventist.org/en/beliefs/humanity/creation/ "God has revealed in Scripture the authentic and historical account of His creative activity. He created the universe, and in a recent six-day creation the Lord made “the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them” and rested on the seventh day."

Yes, now get into a debate about the time it took those seven days. My original statement stands, and I expect just as much FUD this time as we had in the 60's.

Do you see the word "recent" in the church's official position? What do you think "recent" means?

But whether or not Ben Carson is a young-earth creationist he is without question a creationist, specifically a six-day creationist:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/09/ben-carson-creat...

Personally, I don't much care about the particular flavor of Ben Carson's wing-nuttery. The fact that he's the leading contender for the Republican nomination is deeply disturbing. And the Republican leadership agrees with me, BTW:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/time-for-gop-panic-e...

Re: Why do we still not know what's inside the pyramids?

#73

Post by lisper »

protomyth wrote: post #71
lisper wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be, but it is official church doctrine: http://www.adventist.org/en/beliefs/humanity/creation/ "God has revealed in Scripture the authentic and historical account of His creative activity. He created the universe, and in a recent six-day creation the Lord made “the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them” and rested on the seventh day."

Yes, they quote the bible. Yes, many Christian churches quote the same text and call it the same. No, it does not mean all Seventh Day Adventists are young earth creationists.

I didn't say all 7DAs were YECs. But the fact of the matter is that YEC is the church's official position. And Ben Carson is on record as believing in a six-day creation, and professing ignorance of the age of the earth. So we can quibble over the YE part, but not the C part. Ben Carson is without question a creationist.

Re: Why do we still not know what's inside the pyramids?

#74

Post by protomyth »

lisper wrote: post #72
protomyth wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, now get into a debate about the time it took those seven days. My original statement stands, and I expect just as much FUD this time as we had in the 60's.

Do you see the word "recent" in the church's official position? What do you think "recent" means? But whether or not Ben Carson is a young-earth creationist he is without question a creationist, specifically a six-day creationist: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/09/ben-carson-creat... Personally, I don't much care about the particular flavor of Ben Carson's wing-nuttery. The fact that he's the leading conten…

Look, I grew up in a mixed SDA/Catholic household and I'm a bit sick of this crap every time we talk about Mormons, SDA, or Catholics. Its spreading FUD, and of course the establishment Republicans are going to throw a damn fit since Jeb is their candidate.

Re: Why do we still not know what's inside the pyramids?

#75

Post by protomyth »

lisper wrote: post #73
protomyth wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, they quote the bible. Yes, many Christian churches quote the same text and call it the same. No, it does not mean all Seventh Day Adventists are young earth creationists.

I didn't say all 7DAs were YECs. But the fact of the matter is that YEC is the church's official position. And Ben Carson is on record as believing in a six-day creation, and professing ignorance of the age of the earth. So we can quibble over the YE part, but not the C part. Ben Carson is without question a creationist.

"I didn't say all 7DAs were YECs"

your exact phrase was:

"Carson is a Seventh-day Adventist, and hence a young-earth creationist."

Re: Why do we still not know what's inside the pyramids?

#76

Post by ars »

coldtea wrote: post #27
ars wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm sure he's also interested in gaining the support of Christian and Jewish voters If anything that will loose him Jewish votes. According to Jewish history Josef stored grain in the year 1532BCE, but the pyramids were mostly finished by 1759BCE, more than 200 years earlier. If you are going to base a belief in the Bible, maybe actually know what it says first?

> According to Jewish history Josef stored grain in the year 1532BCE, but the pyramids were mostly finished by 1759BCE, more than 200 years earlier. If you are going to base a belief in the Bible, maybe actually know what it says first? Well, if you're going to base a belief in the Bible, why take an outside estimation (the 1759BCE number) into account at all?

It's not an outside estimation, it's based on dates written in the bible. You don't get to believe in the bible and claim a significantly different date for this event.

Carson's position is simply illogical. Either he doesn't know the bible well, or he disagrees with the estimated dates for the construction of the pyramids.

I suspect it's the former, not the latter. He definitely doesn't get my vote.

Re: Why do we still not know what's inside the pyramids?

#77

Post by ars »

nightspirit wrote: post #31
ars wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Was he being serious or just trying to score some sympathy of Jews and Christians? He's just ignorant. Jews would not vote for someone who knows so little about their history. Christians may not be as familiar with the history. According to Jewish history Josef stored grain in the year 1532BCE, but the pyramids were mostly finished by 1759BCE, more than 200 years earlier. The pyramids having anything whatsoever to…

> The pyramids having anything whatsoever to do with the Exodus is a myth created by Hollywood, it is not a Jewish belief at all. Any source? Google only returns articles about Carson, so it looks like it may be his idea. edit: It seems to be an old story, easily predating both Carson and Hollywood. http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/secret-chambers-grain-s...

Source for which? For grain in general? For Josef supposedly being the one to store it? Or for the pyramids having nothing to do with the Jews being slaves in Egypt?

Re: Why do we still not know what's inside the pyramids?

#78

Post by ars »

mcv wrote: post #29
ars wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Was he being serious or just trying to score some sympathy of Jews and Christians? He's just ignorant. Jews would not vote for someone who knows so little about their history. Christians may not be as familiar with the history. According to Jewish history Josef stored grain in the year 1532BCE, but the pyramids were mostly finished by 1759BCE, more than 200 years earlier. The pyramids having anything whatsoever to…

I don't think it's created by Hollywood. I don't think it'd be all that odd to assume they might be the legendary grain silos when they'd just been found and hadn't been opened up yet. It's just that after they've been opened and examined, and we know a lot more about them, it's silly to cling to something that's so obviously false.

The grain might not have been Hollywood.

I meant the idea that Jewish slaves built the pyramids. That idea comes from Hollywood, it is not a Jewish belief.

Re: Why do we still not know what's inside the pyramids?

#79

Post by coldtea »

ars wrote: post #76
coldtea wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> According to Jewish history Josef stored grain in the year 1532BCE, but the pyramids were mostly finished by 1759BCE, more than 200 years earlier. If you are going to base a belief in the Bible, maybe actually know what it says first? Well, if you're going to base a belief in the Bible, why take an outside estimation (the 1759BCE number) into account at all?

It's not an outside estimation, it's based on dates written in the bible. You don't get to believe in the bible and claim a significantly different date for this event. Carson's position is simply illogical. Either he doesn't know the bible well, or he disagrees with the estimated dates for the construction of the pyramids. I suspect it's the former, not the latter. He definitely doesn't get my vote.

>It's not an outside estimation, it's based on dates written in the bible.

The 1759 BCE chronology is based on when archeology says the pyramids were finished. Which is very much an outside estimation -- someone who believes in the Bible can just sidestep it as an inaccurate estimation by archeologists.

In fact it's even worse: there are no dates given in the Bible regarding that story. The 1532BCE number is ALSO an external estimation, based on when historians think who the Pharaohs mentioned was and when he lived. Again, someone who believes in the Bible can just sidestep it as an inaccurate estimation by those historians.

>You don't get to believe in the bible and claim a significantly different date for this event.

You could very much do that too.

Even if there was a specific date mentioned in the Bible about the event and you wanted to reconcile that with a different date that archeology gives, you could just as well believe in the Bible as a collection of first person accounts written by various persons (from kings like Solomon and prophets like Isaiah to wealthy merchants and peasants) that naturally have small inaccuracies here and there.

Not everybody who believes in the Bible thinks it's the perfect account as written down by God himself accurate to any single word (the Eastern Orthodox church, for one, doesn't believe that at all).

>Carson's position is simply illogical. Either he doesn't know the bible well, or he disagrees with the estimated dates for the construction of the pyramids.

Actually there's nothing illogical about disagreeing with the estimated dates for the construction of the pyramids. Heck, archeologists themselves disagree all the time in this or that chronology.

If you think you have a better source of information (the bible in this case) it's perfectly rational to believe that over measly human estimations.

Re: Why do we still not know what's inside the pyramids?

#80

Post by lisper »

protomyth wrote: post #75
lisper wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say all 7DAs were YECs. But the fact of the matter is that YEC is the church's official position. And Ben Carson is on record as believing in a six-day creation, and professing ignorance of the age of the earth. So we can quibble over the YE part, but not the C part. Ben Carson is without question a creationist.

"I didn't say all 7DAs were YECs" your exact phrase was: "Carson is a Seventh-day Adventist, and hence a young-earth creationist."

Really? You want to hold me feet to the fire over my use of the word "hence"? Very well, let me be as excruciatingly precise as I can.

Ben Carson self-identifies as Seventh-Day Adventist (7DA). Hence, if he follows the doctrine of the church he professes to believe in, he is a YEC.

Now, it is possible for someone to self-identify as a 7DA and not be a YEC, just as it is possible for someone to self-identify as a Catholic and deny the authority of the pope, at least on some matters (e.g. all the self-identified Catholics who deny that the use of birth control is a mortal sin). But Ben Carson is clearly a creationist. He's said so on numerous occasions. Arguing over whether he is a YEC or some other flavor of creationist is really whittling at the margins. He's specifically proclaimed ignorance of the age of the earth. He uses YEC code words like "evolutionist" and "micro-evolution".

Finally, it would be exceedingly peculiar for a 7DA to not be a YEC. The name of the sect derives from their belief in Biblical literalism, and specifically from their belief in creation as described in Genesis. A 7DA who is not a creationist would be like a Mormon who thinks Joseph Smith was a con man. Again, not impossible. People can self-identify as anything they want, and once you've abandoned science and reason anything is possible. But it would be really, really weird.

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