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State of emergency in France

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Re: State of emergency in France

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could both of you let the bodies cool down before you start rambling about what they might and might not do? There is no "prime cause" that is easy to work on, the situation is much more complicated than terrorism is the outcome of US/Western US policy. So unless your solution for the "prime cause" is glassing the middle east a large portion of asia and africa there won't be just one simple solution. Not to mention t…

Maybe I shouldn't write this but the prime cause is european war against ISIS. These people are the victims of war. So the best solution is to stop it, withdraw european armies from arabian countries, and stop welcoming refugees. Let them fight among themselves.

That's utter nonsense, there were "Palestinian" (not necessarily carried out by Palestinians, in fact most of them were carried by left wing europeans who used that as a justification) terror attacks in Europe in the 70's when Israel was under a trade embargo by most European countries. Also for the most part there are no European armies in Arab countries, Europe has barely any armies to speak off yet alone to deploy in force overseas. Even if you completely isolate yourself you will still be under their crosshairs doesn't matter if it's for bombing Syria or for building schools in Afghanistan and Pakistan that dare to teach girls. As for the refugees and near eastern and north African migrants that ship has sailed long ago, even if Europe doesn't take a single person now it still needs to find a way to solve it's own internal problem, Europe has utterly failed to assimilate any immigration from near east and African countries since WW2, even the enlightened Nordic states are rife with patronizing racism which prevents any true assimilation and the neo-liberal ideas that some how mandate that migrants should preserve their own culture at any costs aggravates that issue even further.

Re: State of emergency in France

#182
I'm not really into the geopolitics and recent news, but what's wrong with this plan? Hopefully the future European governments will be up to something along those lines rather than balkanization followed by the final solution.

1. Move all illegal migrants to a heavily guarded area akin to the Gaza Strip. All EU members would pay for building and maintaining the camps. Base the camps in a non-EU country so that drastic measures could be taken in case situation gets out of control.

2. Don't grant any new citizenships to legal migrants from high-risk countries, instead issue permanent residence permits and then deport anybody suspected of radicalization.

3. Perform full-scale military intervention in the Middle East to restore the old order. Ideally make deal with Russians and Syrian government to take care of the most dirty tasks.

4. Move migrants back to their homeland.

Re: State of emergency in France

#183
post #172
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Radical Islam But there are plenty of other radical groups. Today the right wing extremists are a greater threat to Americans than Muslims are.

Is this really true? I don't argue that home grown fanatics are not a threat, but I don't see a current organized systemic effort from them to do much of anything other than squawk on the net. The lone nut shooter epidemic is something else. It's not ideological. Seems to be more of a mental health issue.

Your stigmatising language around mental illness means I'm unable to answer this question and stay within HN rules. Just remember that many of those people didn't have signs of mental illness and were not known to MH services; and that people with mental illness are more likely to be the victims of violence than the perpetrators of violence.

But the US has had doctors killed and medical clinics bombed by Christian groups. Anti-abortionist protesters try to deny women their reproductive rights and regularly threaten doctors and nurses and admin staff at medical clinics. (This is a war crime if a state does it.)

Here's what the FBI said in 2002: https://www.fbi.gov/news/testimony/the-terrorist-threat-conf...

> At the same time, the United States also faces significant challenges from domestic terrorists. In fact, between 1980 and 2000, the FBI recorded 335 incidents or suspected incidents of terrorism in this country. Of these, 247 were attributed to domestic terrorists, while 88 were determined to be international in nature.

Re: State of emergency in France

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I just think that conflict fueling unrest more than anything else. Despite the attention it receives, Israel is actually a pretty localized issue. It has very little to do with the biggest conflicts in the Middle East. If Israel weren't around, Syria would still be destabilized and we would still have ISIS. Also, your rhetoric around wiping Israel off the map kind of gives your agenda away.

> If Israel weren't around, Syria would still be destabilized and we would still have ISIS. Are you sure? According to the founding father of Zionism Theodore Herzl, “the area of the Jewish State stretches: “From the Brook of Egypt to the Euphrates.” According to Rabbi Fischmann, “The Promised Land extends from the River of Egypt up to the Euphrates, it includes parts of Syria and Lebanon.” When viewed in the current…

> According to the founding father of Zionism Theodore Herzl, “the area of the Jewish State stretches: “From the Brook of Egypt to the Euphrates.”

Yeah, it's just that no Israelis want any more areas. Except the extremist ones.

Re: State of emergency in France

#185
post #54
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have an alternative? All I see is naïve suggestions. As I see it we have several options: 1. We accept the fact that we will have more terror attacks in major European cities as a given. We such it up and we continue to live in a free and liberal society. 2. We accept total surveillance of our society. As the technology becomes more honed, terror attacks might be easier to prevent before they start. 3. We acce…

I always wonder why I never see this one on lists of choices: 5. Stop killing large numbers of Muslim people in the Middle East every week and see if that doesn't make them less likely to kill comparatively small numbers of people in Western cities every couple of years.

Perhaps you talk about the 2000 french terrorists in Syria killing thousand of Syrians ?

Re: State of emergency in France

#186
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> France is sending its largest warship to join operations against Islamic State (IS) in Syria and Iraq. source: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34738177

Thanks. I was genuinely curious. To me "power projection" in itself is morally very questionable. Even without terrorist attacks. Unfortunately modern geopolitics is more Machiavellian than Machiavelli himself was.

Without terrorists attack ? French terrorists are plenty in Syria.

Re: State of emergency in France

#187
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not stopping genocide is morally questionable too. And that's what Assad and IS have been doing.

It's not just morally questionable, it's outright wrong. Unfortunately trying to stop genocide with violence and failing miserably is even more wrong. On the other hand using supposed genocide as excuse to forward geopolitical interests would also be wrong. Given how Vietnam, Afghanistan, or Iraq wars have turned out, I'm not in favor of meddling. Given how nobody gave single fuck about Khmer rouge, I don't believe i…

Because it is better to let your own terrorist grow the biggest terrorist owned zone, and build an enormous army full of cash ? This is exactly what create this big projection power that make successful terrorist attack in France.

Re: State of emergency in France

#188
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Traffic deaths do not provide a useful scale here. They are typically not intentional and everyone understands that you take risks when you ride in an automobile. An act of terrorism, even if it causes no casualties, is cause for great concern because innocent civilians are being deliberately targeted.

They provide a completely useful scale when you are taking about society accepting a certain level of risk as the cost of having some value. As a society, we have decided that the deaths caused by cars are worth the mobility and convenience they provide. I personally think freedom and equality are worth at least as much as cars.

I think this is a fantastic comment and I completely agree with it. If we are willing to accept thousands of dead people so we get to work on time, we should well accept thousands of dead people for our core liberties and beliefs.

Its difficult to think this clearly when shocked by an unusual circumstance but its the better way to live.

Re: State of emergency in France

#189
post #65
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always wonder why I never see this one on lists of choices: 5. Stop killing large numbers of Muslim people in the Middle East every week and see if that doesn't make them less likely to kill comparatively small numbers of people in Western cities every couple of years.

Aka 5. Make peace But I forgot, that's just 'naïve'.

ISIS don't want peace.

They want to fulfill a prophesy. Everyone be who is not IS is to be killed. That includes moderate Muslims that don't join IS. Read the wikileaks article linked above.

This isn't about revenge or retribution.

Re: State of emergency in France

#190
post #189
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aka 5. Make peace But I forgot, that's just 'naïve'.

ISIS don't want peace. They want to fulfill a prophesy. Everyone be who is not IS is to be killed. That includes moderate Muslims that don't join IS. Read the wikileaks article linked above. This isn't about revenge or retribution.

I think it's naive to think that IS exists in some sort of vacuum, rather than within a context of ongoing conflicts between the Western and the muslim world.
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