The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie • Hacker News Board

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#141

Post by mixmastamyk » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 9:41 PM UTC

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #133

x0x0 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, no we don't. Administration spending has massively increased over the last 30 years. Spending on faculty that does teaching hasn't. Somehow we managed to run colleges 30 years ago w/ half the administration.

Students want more than they did before. More counseling, more recreational activities, better housing. There are still a lot of other gaps too that students are demanding to be filled, like workers compensation for graduate students who run labs and get injured when things explode in their face. Universities also partake in expensive undertakings like performing research and hosting conferences and the like, the cos…

> Students want more than they did before.

Hmm, perhaps the cost of these things should be separated from the general tuition, thereby allowing people to pick and choose according to what they will pay for. Therefore staffing will scale to demand.

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#142

Post by jrs235 » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 10:06 PM UTC

x0x0 wrote: post #121

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in higher Ed as an app developer with a focus on standardizing web apps across the college and it is very very hard to get the disparate forces within to work together. My parents have been academics their entire careers and have told me throughout my childhood the very same thing. Trust me when I say that it is much more complicated than you think. There is no "cut down on administrative costs" magic wand. We…

No, no we don't. Administration spending has massively increased over the last 30 years. Spending on faculty that does teaching hasn't. Somehow we managed to run colleges 30 years ago w/ half the administration.

From 2013 but probably still relevant:

"Teachers outnumbered in schools by administrators, support staff in many states, study shows"

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/feb/28/teachers-out...

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#143

Post by mixmastamyk » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 10:46 PM UTC

cortesoft wrote: post #33

_lex wrote: post #19

There are strong economic disincentives to training employees in transferable skills: the second you do, their market value increases, which means that if you don't pay them more, they will be recruited by other companies willing to do so. So you wind up paying for both their education and an increased salary because you educated them. It's cheaper to just hire someone who's already educated. For example, consider th…

This seems so obvious, I can't believe others aren't seeing this. It is a clear collective action problem - the free loader (the company who doesn't train and just hires the trained worker away from the other company) will always have the advantage.

Except when you can't hire, because all those experienced folks are taken. Then the work doesn't get done and the company falls behind in inaction.

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#144

Post by fancy_pantser » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 11:06 PM UTC

krisdol wrote: post #111

aianus wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can confirm, I don't know a single person who studied CS at Waterloo and graduated with $1 of debt. Most had cars and hefty savings accounts along with job offers by senior year.

I don't understand how, as a student in a (miraculously) high paying internship for (miraculously) 4+ years straight, you could save up the $30k-$100k needed in the US to pay off a degree after dealing with rent, food, insurance, and other bills for those years. Our dorms at UT Austin were nearly as much as rent nearby, and while rent was barely cheaper if you commute, there's the added cost of having to use a car. R…

If you don't understand how then you must have not tried to do an internship while you were in college. It's not very hard, especially somewhere like Austin.

For students going to UT, I highly recommend an internship somewhere like RetailMeNot downtown. You could easily pay for your education and living expenses during school and have a job after. When I was there we were recruiting interns like crazy and paying up to $10k for relocation alone. They were very hands-on and had to learn a ton of practical skills. There are similar programs all over town -- you just need to have something (anything!) to demonstrate some basic skills.

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#145

Post by x0x0 » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 11:07 PM UTC

cryoshon wrote: post #48

This article is decent, but it's missing the main component of the problem, which is that companies aren't willing to pay for the level of talent they are demanding, and instead will smile and offer "entry level" pay for a job that is not entry level. This problem occurs in broader audiences than the tech industry, of course. They are using PR to communicate to the public that there is a shortage, but in reality ther…

The reality here is VCs, billionaires, and CEOs are busy talking their book (what is their largest expense? Often, salaries. What does skilled immigration serve to reduce? Salaries. Say it isn't so!) But they're in danger of losing control of the narrative.

Secondly, they want to claim, particularly to government, that the tech industry as a whole needs more immigration and more government funded education. ie they speak for us, rather than for themselves, and a small group of owners and the rich.

They certainly well understand if they pay more they'll be able to hire nearly anyone they choose or want. They just don't wish to do so. By their fruit you will recognize them. I suggest that, as a working engineer, we refrain from taking advice on what's best for us from many of same people (or their paid advocates) who were recently involved in a conspiracy to reduce our wages.

Where's the massive runup in engineering salaries that would accompany an actually tight labor market? Have you, or any of your peers, recently gotten, say, a $10k or greater per annum raise? Without switching employers? Have your wages kept pace with the runup in housing costs in the bay area? It's finally percolating through the collective consciousness that working at startups as an employee often isn't a particularly good deal. See eg Tikhon [1].

But, you know, employees advocating for themselves instead of their bosses; that's class consciousness and socialism and all sorts of evil. To the fainting couch!

[1] https://medium.com/@tikhon/founders-it-s-not-1990-stop-treat...

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#146

Post by fancy_pantser » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 11:37 PM UTC

krisdol wrote: post #111

aianus wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can confirm, I don't know a single person who studied CS at Waterloo and graduated with $1 of debt. Most had cars and hefty savings accounts along with job offers by senior year.

I don't understand how, as a student in a (miraculously) high paying internship for (miraculously) 4+ years straight, you could save up the $30k-$100k needed in the US to pay off a degree after dealing with rent, food, insurance, and other bills for those years. Our dorms at UT Austin were nearly as much as rent nearby, and while rent was barely cheaper if you commute, there's the added cost of having to use a car. R…

If you don't understand how then you must have not tried to do an internship while you were in college. It's not very hard, especially somewhere like Austin. It is not a miracle. I see close to 100 openings for interns at HireUTexas (hosted by UT) and over 200 postings on Indeed.

For students going to UT, I highly recommend an internship somewhere like RetailMeNot downtown. You could easily pay for your education and living expenses during school and have a job after. When I was there we were recruiting interns like crazy and paying up to $10k for relocation alone. They were very hands-on and had to learn a ton of practical skills. There are similar programs all over town -- you just need to have something (anything!) to demonstrate some basic skills and be willing to learn.

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#147

Post by aianus » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 3:51 AM UTC

rco8786 wrote: post #22

aianus wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can confirm, I don't know a single person who studied CS at Waterloo and graduated with $1 of debt. Most had cars and hefty savings accounts along with job offers by senior year.

My company aggressively hires interns and new grads out of Waterloo. I wish more CS programs would follow their model. For those that don't know, the CS program at Waterloo is 5 years long. 4 years for the traditional education but there's also a requirement that the student complete FIVE internships at different companies(thus the extra year). It's a great combination of learning and on the job training, and they ge…

The requirement says 5 internships to graduate, but that's just in case you can't find one your first work term. There are 6 work terms in the schedule and almost everyone does all 6 internships.

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#148

Post by aianus » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 3:56 AM UTC

spyspy wrote: post #32

aianus wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can confirm, I don't know a single person who studied CS at Waterloo and graduated with $1 of debt. Most had cars and hefty savings accounts along with job offers by senior year.

The cost to attend college in Canada is nothing compared to the US.

It was a little over $13,000 USD a year in tuition while I was there. Roughly comparable to in-state tuition at a good public school like Berkeley.

Now with the Canadian dollar tanking it's more like $10,000 USD. Lucky kids (the internships are overwhelmingly in the US and paid in USD).

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#149

Post by mbesto » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 7:04 PM UTC

vonmoltke wrote: post #65

mbesto wrote: post #24

The tech talent shortage is a lie when you don't know what tech talent actually looks like. It also doesn't exist nearly as strong as it does in SV. Remote is a solution, but not everyone knows how to run a company with remote employees. > And therein lies the problem: The real shortage isn’t of talented people; it’s of employers (and, by implication, society) who are willing or able to nurture talented people. When…

> When everyone has a runway of 18 months, spending the time and money to nurture talented people isn't feasible whatsoever. You need productive people on day 1. Day productivity is a mirage. Nobody is productive on day 1 unless they were already somehow working with your organization and understand your processes[1], team dynamics, and whatnot. > Yet, the author's company is full of white males in their 20's and 30'…

> Nobody is productive on day 1

"Day 1" doesn't literally mean the first hour of employment. I guess you didn't pick up the subtle exaggeration.

> You must be seeing something on that page I am not.

There are exactly 11 images of people on that page. 9 of which are light skinned, male, and dressed almost identical to what you would see in a typical SV tech startup. There is exactly 1, yes 1, woman.

> How many of them have you interviewed?

Lots, in fact, most of them are not Stanford grads. Care to elaborate why that's relevant?

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#150

Post by tokipin » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 9:43 PM UTC

rco8786 wrote: post #47

jwoah12 wrote: post #15

I think the major disconnect here is in the industry's general inability to recognize ability through the standard interview processes. On one hand you have the common whiteboard coding interviews popular among the big tech players (and much of the rest of the industry). I'm definitely biased here, as someone who is average/below average at these types of interviews but an above average (I hope) developer, but I don'…

Lots of companies do that, fwiw...though I agree that many companies may benefit from doing it more instead of blindly following the "big tech" whiteboard style. Here's the thing about the whiteboard coding interviews: A) There's a huge false negative rate. I.E. a lot of good engineers get turned down because of a bad whiteboard exercise. B) The "big tech" companies know this and do not care . They have people who wa…

it's a simple idea in theory, but the reality of these things is a different beast, in particular that these tests form a filter not just in terms of degree, but also in terms of kind. this is why Google is Google and is extreme in both its strengths and weaknesses.

what i'm curious about is how Apple weathers these particular waters, since they have more to lose than any of the other big companies ever had. hehehe.