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The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

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Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#91
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Government spending on schools is enough; maybe too much. Are you kidding? Almost every public school I know of has to run fundraisers because government funding is not enough to last through the school year.

Cut down on administration costs.

I work in higher Ed as an app developer with a focus on standardizing web apps across the college and it is very very hard to get the disparate forces within to work together. My parents have been academics their entire careers and have told me throughout my childhood the very same thing. Trust me when I say that it is much more complicated than you think. There is no "cut down on administrative costs" magic wand. We have people paid to do things for a reason.

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apprenticeships aren't a good answer either, though. They create too much of a caste system, and are very restricting. What if at 18 I don't actually know what I want to do? If I join an apprenticeship I'm learning one thing. What if I don't like that one thing? What if I get 5 years into an apprenticeship and realize I can't get to the level I want to be at? I have to start over from zero in another field? I don't l…

Many of the reasons you point to are the result of guilds, which were very territorial about their workers and markets. What I am proposing is for apprenticeships to be democratized by being made available for any employer willing to accept the wage subsidy. So if you decide after 5 years that engineering sucks, you can always find an apprenticeship elsewhere (assuming your former employer doesn't give you a dreadful…

This is an interesting topic to brew on. There would certainly be a lot of problems that would be tough to address using apprenticeship, but it's not like our current education system is lacking in problems.

I wonder, though, how apprentices would fair in competition with people having general education and degree focus. Fields require skills to change over time, and quite quickly now. I wonder if an apprentice would be stronger in the short-term and outpaced in the long-term.

Also, where does the wage subsidy you talk about come from? Would people be paying for their own apprenticeships? The government paying for some like public institutions?

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#93
post #90

I have said it a million times before and I will say it as long as necessary to fix our employment-education conundrum: you do not learn how to work by sitting in class, you learn to work by going to work. We need publicly subsidized apprenticeships to replace the assumed role of the outrageously expensive 4 year college degree as the primary means of acquiring skills for the modern labor force. There is a place for…

I agree with the thrust of your argument. Pretty much no one gets job training from university, they get it when they start actually working. There is a big problem, however, and it's only going to get worse. If all your training is in a specific industry, what happens when that job gets outsourced or automated away? I'm not sure I completely buy it, but there is a case to be made for generalist education as preparat…

Here's how I see it: people should be guaranteed apprenticeships regardless of the job market or results of automation. However I also think that some portion of their income should be accrued into a college-only account, should they choose to expand their general education.

This is just my opinion and I would welcome responses.

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#94
Sorry if this is just oversight, but I haven't seen much discussion on HN of liability arising from termination of an employee. I'd guess (admittedly, no data here) that this is one of the major factors driving disemployment for marginal tech candidates (read: those whose qualifications are in doubt). Hiring someone you may soon need to fire is difficult enough, but probably not a dealbreaker. However, pair that with legal risk, especially arising from discrimination suits, and the expected value of your candidate turns deeply negative.

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#95

I have said it a million times before and I will say it as long as necessary to fix our employment-education conundrum: you do not learn how to work by sitting in class, you learn to work by going to work. We need publicly subsidized apprenticeships to replace the assumed role of the outrageously expensive 4 year college degree as the primary means of acquiring skills for the modern labor force. There is a place for…

Apprenticeships aren't a good answer either, though. They create too much of a caste system, and are very restricting. What if at 18 I don't actually know what I want to do? If I join an apprenticeship I'm learning one thing. What if I don't like that one thing? What if I get 5 years into an apprenticeship and realize I can't get to the level I want to be at? I have to start over from zero in another field? I don't l…

Ask Tobias Lütke, founder of Shopify, if apprenticeship restricted him.

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#96
The discussion is muddied by treating "tech talent" as a meaningful grouping of people. It is a similar type of error as "STEM jobs", which includes both marine biologists and computer scientists even though they have wildly different experiences in the job market.

Some software jobs can be quickly learned by anyone with good programming experience. These are the kinds of "shortages" that can be reasonably solved by training existing software talent. There is a baseline amount of skill required but that level is low enough that it is at least plausible that you can expand the supply on a reasonable time horizon.

However, some high-demand software jobs require multiple years of experience and a high talent baseline to be an effective practitioner. The time required to develop these skills can exceed the life cycle of companies and products. These shortages are very real because there is no easy way to manufacture more of this talent on a time horizon that matters to anyone. Consequently, they tend to be self-trained in operational environments over several years. People with these skills tend to be paid atypically well, but you are really just shifting the shortage around between different companies. High wages per se does not manufacture a talent pool.

In software, we have talent shortages that could be addressed by training and we have talent shortages where the amount of time required to produce new talent is so high that it is almost never worth it for a company to make that investment. In practice, the latter case has been solved by people investing in themselves over several years (usually because they have a keen interest) to develop the skill but in many areas this is definitely not producing enough talent to meet demand.

These are problems that must be solved differently. Lumping them together muddies the conversation as people talk past each other.

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#97
"Who should be responsible for developing talent? On one side, we have enthusiastic, curious people without much experience. On another, we have employers who want experienced people but don’t want to invest in the training themselves. And between them, we have colleges that offer students educational groundwork in computer science but don't want to transform into coding trade schools."

I would also like to add: We have employers who want highly skilled full-stack developers with 5 to 10 yrs experience but don't want to pay top dollar for them. Instead they scream about a tech talent shortage in order to push the expansion of H1-B to get cheaper labor.

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#98
I always focus on hiring for Attitude and Aptitude.

If you have a bad attitude I can't help you with that.

If you have aptitude and a good attitude we can teach you whatever you need to learn to be successful on our team.

What I know about every person ever is they came into this world with little to no knowledge, they had to learn to eat, walk, talk, run, etc. If we focus too much on a candidate's experience and background we miss out on their potential future value.

One of the greatest employees I ever hired was a pool man, literally cleaning pools for a living when I met him. He was a hobbyist computer hacker and I asked him how he'd like to do that full time. He learned and turned out to be an amazing asset to my team. I have many stories like this over my long career. It's not about the school you went to, or what social circles you hang out in, in the end it's about your passion and ability to learn and get shit done.

All this said I do worry that our systems are not creating the space for people to find their passion while they hone their skills and find a career path.

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#99
post #46

>Barriers To Entry There's another group facing barriers to entry in the tech world: those without CS degrees. There are plenty of people without a CS degree who are talented, have natural aptitude, work hard, and can certainly program who get blasted during technical interviews trying to do the "CS fundamentals" dance. I have a ECE degree (with a focus in software), and while I looked for jobs it was and still is to…

Same here. Been pretty burned by this.

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#100
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of companies do that, fwiw...though I agree that many companies may benefit from doing it more instead of blindly following the "big tech" whiteboard style. Here's the thing about the whiteboard coding interviews: A) There's a huge false negative rate. I.E. a lot of good engineers get turned down because of a bad whiteboard exercise. B) The "big tech" companies know this and do not care . They have people who wa…

> The whiteboard interview is setup to minimize false positives. I have yet to see evidence that it actually does this. Everything I have seen so far is of the form, "$BIG_COMPANY does whiteboard interviews, $BIG_COMPANY hires few bad people, therefore whiteboard interviews minimize false positives". The problem is, that says nothing about the effect the whiteboard interview has on doing this. Would the rate change i…

Anecdotally, we switched up our process some in an attempt to be able to hire faster (mostly by avoiding false negatives). It used to be standard whiteboard style; we switched to a mix of that and more real-work style interviews. False positives went up pretty significantly, and even after shedding those the general quality was of hires was a bit lower.
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