Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say • Hacker News Board

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#311

Post by littletimmy » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 2:55 AM UTC

usaphp wrote: post #208

I don't understand how can you talk about ISIS, Nazis and Communists in the same sentence? Communism has nothing to do with violence compared to ISIS and Nazis... Edit: Why downvotes? Idea of communism does not propose violence, Nazis and ISIS on the other hand do.

Because they hate our "freedoms" man! Our enemies, they all a mob of crooks. We're the good guys.

At least, that's what the sorta person who bunches together ISIS, Nazis, and Communists has in mind. He fails to realize that Capitalism is just another utopian philosophy that will fail just like the others. It is also as violent as the others, even if its violence is covert.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#312

Post by clock_tower » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 2:55 AM UTC

djfm wrote: post #76

I live in Paris and was spending the night in the middle of the hot zone. I was a few hundred meters from the Bataclan but fortunately the area I was in was spared. I tried to get a Uber but they were unavailable, "State of emergency, please stay home", the app said. I took a city bike home, rode about 10kms and barely saw anyone in the streets all the way home. It was really, really weird. I'm awfully sad that peopl…

I may be in the middle of an argument about Communism (which is the last thing I was expecting here!), but you and everyone in France are in my prayers.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#313

Post by littletimmy » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 2:55 AM UTC

andreasvc wrote: post #226

usaphp wrote: post #208

I don't understand how can you talk about ISIS, Nazis and Communists in the same sentence? Communism has nothing to do with violence compared to ISIS and Nazis... Edit: Why downvotes? Idea of communism does not propose violence, Nazis and ISIS on the other hand do.

There has been plenty of communist-inspired violent terrorism. Germany's RAF, Italy's Red Brigade, Japan's United Red Army, Peru's Shining Path, Columbia's FARC, Sri Lanka's Tamil Tigers, etc. etc. Saying these are not real communists is just a No True Scotsman. As soon as people start believing in utopias there's a danger that they will cross a line.

Pan-Americanism and Capitalism are both utopian ideas.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#314

Post by toyg » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 2:57 AM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #301

jamhan wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao Zedong, Kim Il Sung - just to name a couple of famous exponents of communism. Perhaps you are mistaking the ideal of communism with the actual practice of it, which has proven to be just as genocidal as anything else in history.

[deleted]

Didn't you get the memo? They were bad, but now that they make loads of plastic crap for us which we then rebrand and resell to them, they're mostly ok.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#315

Post by asadlionpk » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 2:58 AM UTC

cryptica wrote: post #137

This soils the reputation of islam. I know some good people (muslims) who suffer from prejudice on a daily basis because of attacks like these. Being a muslim in a foreign country is an increasingly difficult and isolating experience.

Being a muslim in a foreign country, I confirm. I don't know why but I feel scared/guilty when something like this happens. It's sad they have to use Islam's name to do this when my interpretation (of Islam) is exactly the opposite.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#316

Post by zaroth » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 2:59 AM UTC

intopieces wrote: post #205

asasasasasas wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if we were to remove our dependence on foreign oil? Though fusion is a long way out, hypothetically, if we didn't have any reason to interfere and could just leave the Middle East to figure out its own problems, they wouldn't have a reason to see us as the enemy.

In 2014, net imports accounted for 27% of the petroleum consumed in the United States. 37% of that comes from Canada, followed by 13% from Saudi Arabia. [0] Our dependence on foreign oil is no longer an excuse for our meddling in the Middle East. [0] http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=727&t=6

I think our significantly decreasing reliance on foreign energy has put the writing on the wall. Middle East countries used to pushing hundreds of billions in oil welfare and running surpluses will be in serious deficit and facing a decimated budget which will tank their economies. Perhaps the thinking is to revolt now before the money is all gone? With such a strikingly oil-centric economy, oil crashed from its high, steady technological progress making their fields increasingly irrelevant over time... Cities built on $140 oil will sink back into the sand. Seems to me massacring innocent French civilians only makes it happen faster.

We meddle a lot less overall in the Middle East the last 8 years than the prior 8, right? If we don't then Russia steps up to do it themselves (for better or worse US has no leadership there anymore so maybe why not Russia give it a shot?)

In the end I personally don't believe the massacre is in any way "caused" by US or other foreign involvement in the Middle East. This is not the first caliphate, nor will it be the last, and it's not about righting wrongs or a struggle for independence, it's literally about inflicting mass casualties on the infidels in as an atrocious and terrifying (i.e beheadings) manor as possible.

Over 100 murdered is a mind boggling atrocity but also a terrible security failure. Not just in failing to catch and prevent it, but failure to take out the shooters at the concert sooner. (I haven't read a detailed account of how the shooters were stopped if there is one)

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#317

Post by PhasmaFelis » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 3:00 AM UTC

usaphp wrote: post #224

Svip wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he might be talking about Stalinism. Or at the very least, just Stalin.

So you think Stalin was as bad as ISIS and Nazis? edit: Why downvotes? I've asked a question, I wonder how western people see Stalin in history. I as Russian see him as the one who was involved in defeating Nazis

> So you think Stalin was as bad as ISIS and Nazis?

The general consensus is that Germany under Hitler killed around 11 million noncombatants. The USSR under Stalin killed at least 20 million, with some estimates ranging much higher.

Many people in the west still say that Hitler was worse because he tried to exterminate entire ethnic groups, where Stalin mostly killed anyone that he thought might get in his way. I think they were both monsters, and there's no profit in trying to measure which one was worse.

Stalin did help defeat the Nazis. Don't make the mistake of thinking that makes him the good guy. In stories, the villain's enemy is always a hero, but in real life, villains fight other villains all the time.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#318

Post by coldtea » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 3:00 AM UTC

jamhan wrote: post #243

usaphp wrote: post #208

I don't understand how can you talk about ISIS, Nazis and Communists in the same sentence? Communism has nothing to do with violence compared to ISIS and Nazis... Edit: Why downvotes? Idea of communism does not propose violence, Nazis and ISIS on the other hand do.

Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao Zedong, Kim Il Sung - just to name a couple of famous exponents of communism. Perhaps you are mistaking the ideal of communism with the actual practice of it, which has proven to be just as genocidal as anything else in history.

Sure, be we could name the famous exponents of non-communist states too, and amass a huge blood toll that rivals and surpasses these people.

Heck, there were 2 world wars in which communists countries were only involved in the second, and only on the allies side. How many people were killed there, including civilians?

And let's not get started in the 18th-19th century history, before marxism was even invented...

War, murder and dictatorship are what they are -- they don't just belong to one single side of the political spectrum.

In Indonesia, for one example, nearly a million communist sympathizers were executed by right wingers (as were in Pinochet's Chile and elsewhere). This is an interesting watch:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2375605/

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#319

Post by PhasmaFelis » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 3:00 AM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #82

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. I'm sure a bunch of dipshits are already claiming that this is what happens when you allow Muslims into your country, somehow. Gonna wind up hurting a lot more innocent people.

Can we at least wait until people start saying these things before we complain? I'm getting tired of seeing a bunch of comments complaining about other people supposedly making arguments of which I see no trace.

I suppose I could have been clearer. People are already making those arguments in the comments of practically every news story on the subject.

It is the central dynamic that perpetuates all this violence. Someone from Group A kills dozens or hundreds of Group B, which uses the violence as an excuse to oppress thousands of Group A, which uses the oppression as an excuse to kill more of Group B, and this goes on and on for decades long after everyone's forgotten who "started" it or why, because both sides have convinced themselves, against all logic and evidence of history, that if they just hurt the other guys enough they'll give up and be nice.

It is never going to end until we find a way to break the cycle. The only way I can think of to contribute is to be a voice condemning the violent bigots on both sides, and trying to separate them from the millions of innocents that they claim to represent. It's not much. It probably isn't anything at all. But what else can I do?

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#320

Post by Asbostos » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 3:00 AM UTC

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #238

darkr wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends if the French are as disposed to shooting each other as Americans are. Over 10,000 Americans are killed by gun violence every year. This is excluding ~19,000 firearm suicides. Since 9/11, the number of U.S. citizens killed in terrorist attacks each year has never surpassed 75.

According to bjs.gov (Bureau of Justice Statistics), it's been around 11-12,000 gun homicides in recent years, down from around 16,000 a few years ago. Over half of those are black-on-black shootings, mainly gang related. If you control for these gangland shootings, the per capita rate in the U.S. is about the same as Western Europe and Canada. The U.S. has a socio-economic problem in the ghetto areas, not a gun prob…

I suspect law abiding black citizens in gangland ghettos aren't doing most of the shootings either. What you've done here is to subdivide the whole American population into a group of "not many shooters" and "Higher proportion of shooters". Of course you can always do that, and always find a more specific group that dominates the statistics for any type of crime. But there's a worrying implication that we should somehow allow non-gang members to have guns but ban them from gang members. Or allow people in rich neighborhoods to have guns but ban them from ghettos. Or even, dare I say it, ban them from black people.

Really we need to ban guns from shooters. But there's no way to identify them without catching a lot of harmless people up in the same net. Even poor black gang members can be harmless.