The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie • Hacker News Board

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#131

Post by vdnkh » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 8:36 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #118

vdnkh wrote: post #46

>Barriers To Entry There's another group facing barriers to entry in the tech world: those without CS degrees. There are plenty of people without a CS degree who are talented, have natural aptitude, work hard, and can certainly program who get blasted during technical interviews trying to do the "CS fundamentals" dance. I have a ECE degree (with a focus in software), and while I looked for jobs it was and still is to…

At the same time, I've seen an awful lot of coders set out on a course of action that is easy, provided they first solve the generalized Halting Problem. When I observe that the first thing they need to is solve the Halting Problem, they've never heard of it, but they're going to get cracking straight away on it... I don't have a CS degree, technically. I have a Mech E degree with an awful lot of EE/CS coursework and…

>Halting Problem

What an easy way to confuse someone whose never heard of the term for "does the program stop". It's pedantic.

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#132

Post by tankerdude » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 8:43 PM UTC

cortesoft wrote: post #79

tankerdude wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So that specific company either doesn't hire, or hires for less compensation, if they can find it. But that doesn't mean that there's a shortage of workers. It means that that company isn't paying the market rate and thus will pull the good old H1B trick.

If lots of companies that have a need can't fill that need at a price they can afford, that is by definition a shortage. Of course a company could hire a worker if they spent enough money; even in the middle of a famine, you can find food if you have enough money. Are there a lot of engineers sitting around unemployed, not taking these jobs that are offered because they aren't paying enough? I don't think that is the…

The pool of unemployed engineers is of decent size, especially people who are over 40. We know that ageism exists in tech, and many are deemed not even worthy of an interview.

I will also disagree that these companies "cannot afford it". Who are the ones complaining? They are mainly very large corporations, or at least the ones that are being heard. Do you really think that hiring of an engineer here will make it so that they will become unprofitable?

It's the old saying of, "if you've been unemployed for X number of months, you will get shunned".

So again, it's supply/demand. If you want to pay less, why not just hire give the unemployed guys a shot at that lower pay? It's part of doing business. So pay less for less quality, but that's not what companies want. They want to pay less but for a higher quality. Like all things economics, we can have a substitute. It might be an inferior one, but you're not sure.

As far as wages, meh. I dunno. Once you hit a certain level these days, you kind of top out in engineering, or what people _want_ to pay. And the top of the graph gets dragged down by the sheer number of H1Bs.

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#133

Post by rm_-rf_slash » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 8:56 PM UTC

x0x0 wrote: post #121

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in higher Ed as an app developer with a focus on standardizing web apps across the college and it is very very hard to get the disparate forces within to work together. My parents have been academics their entire careers and have told me throughout my childhood the very same thing. Trust me when I say that it is much more complicated than you think. There is no "cut down on administrative costs" magic wand. We…

No, no we don't. Administration spending has massively increased over the last 30 years. Spending on faculty that does teaching hasn't. Somehow we managed to run colleges 30 years ago w/ half the administration.

Students want more than they did before. More counseling, more recreational activities, better housing. There are still a lot of other gaps too that students are demanding to be filled, like workers compensation for graduate students who run labs and get injured when things explode in their face. Universities also partake in expensive undertakings like performing research and hosting conferences and the like, the cost of which tend to increase more than the price of bread and gas over time.

I think people see higher education as a huge bill that just has to be cut because it's big. It is much more complex than people think. I have been a part of this system literally my entire life, starting from my birth while my mother was in law school.

If you have suggestions on how to reduce the cost of higher education, I am all ears. Just know that people who come in and think they can run it "like a business" are a laughingstock from California to Cambridge.

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#134

Post by x0x0 » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 9:07 PM UTC

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #133

x0x0 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, no we don't. Administration spending has massively increased over the last 30 years. Spending on faculty that does teaching hasn't. Somehow we managed to run colleges 30 years ago w/ half the administration.

Students want more than they did before. More counseling, more recreational activities, better housing. There are still a lot of other gaps too that students are demanding to be filled, like workers compensation for graduate students who run labs and get injured when things explode in their face. Universities also partake in expensive undertakings like performing research and hosting conferences and the like, the cos…

Want and need are different words for a reason =)

Yes, college is a huge bill that needs to be cut. It's both unethical and horrid for our economy to saddle students with so much debt when they're starting out in life.

How to reduce costs: line administrators up in a row and have them count off 1,2. Fire either the evens or the odds. Return to administrator staffing levels from 30 years ago. What doesn't get done doesn't get done.

see eg http://ucbfa.org/2013/01/uc-management-bloat-updated/

at berkeley, base year 1991, management grew 252%, while non-management (ie productive workers) grew approx 42%.

I also think we should cut most sports -- why do our colleges need to serve as an amateur league for the nfl? -- but that opinion is not widely shared. Nonetheless, the amount of bloat that has crept in to what is purely overhead is stunning. Note that none of this has to do with "running like a business" except that business wouldn't tolerate this level of management overhead; it's wildly excessive.

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#135

Post by nogbit » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 9:12 PM UTC

x0x0 wrote: post #121

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in higher Ed as an app developer with a focus on standardizing web apps across the college and it is very very hard to get the disparate forces within to work together. My parents have been academics their entire careers and have told me throughout my childhood the very same thing. Trust me when I say that it is much more complicated than you think. There is no "cut down on administrative costs" magic wand. We…

No, no we don't. Administration spending has massively increased over the last 30 years. Spending on faculty that does teaching hasn't. Somehow we managed to run colleges 30 years ago w/ half the administration.

30 years ago you may not of had all the city, state and federal compliance and policy laws that a modern day state university has now and must enforce or report on (more rules/laws/regs with no funding to support them). Additionally, I know for a fact, when there are hiring and salary freezes for 5+ years on end that faculty are the exception to that rule (not the staff).

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#136

Post by jdmichal » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 9:15 PM UTC

nulltype wrote: post #59

rco8786 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of companies do that, fwiw...though I agree that many companies may benefit from doing it more instead of blindly following the "big tech" whiteboard style. Here's the thing about the whiteboard coding interviews: A) There's a huge false negative rate. I.E. a lot of good engineers get turned down because of a bad whiteboard exercise. B) The "big tech" companies know this and do not care . They have people who wa…

Part B there is why I suspect this tech talent shortage is not as real as it's made out to be. If there was a shortage, they would totally care.

Just because I have enough food on my table does not mean that no one is starving.

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#137

Post by CaptSpify » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 9:16 PM UTC

J-dawg wrote: post #123

citizens wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "On the other hand you have many startups who won't even interview you if you don't have side projects or open source contributions to show" In my experience having too many side projects can be perceived as a negative for some employers.

Why would too many side projects be perceived as negative? I'm genuinely struggling to think of a reason.

I can think of two (note: I don't think they are valid).

A) You won't have time to work "outside of office hours". A lot of tech is notorious for having people work all kinds of hours. If your busy working on side-projects, you won't be working on work-projects

B) Burn out. If you spend all your time coding, you might end up burning out after the company has invested money and time into you.

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#138

Post by mixmastamyk » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 9:23 PM UTC

This rings true, regarding training... lost an opportunity this year because I hadn't used Django REST framework yet, even though I have years of Django and REST experience separately. Probably would have taken the better part of an hour to fill that deficiency.

Part of the problem are the blog posts that became fashionable a few years ago. The ones that talk about accepting only 10x developers, and the "horrible" outcomes of hiring the wrong person. While they have truth to them, what a disservice they have done to the industry. Hiring managers are now frozen in fear and inaction. Not everyone can be a "unicorn" but certainly even average developers can crank out good web apps with occasional guidance and high standards around them.

Since most places are looking for multiple devs, why not hire an extra and cut under-performers when that becomes clear in a couple of months? Start them with low-context tasks.

Besides the race/gender problem, another issue is the age thing, which the article didn't mention. Imagine an other industry where people with experience are excluded! "Only 28-year old white guys with beards need apply". No, your new event-driven web framework is nothing special that hasn't been done a hundred times. But those in charge now unfortunately don't have the experience to know that.

Oh, and the pay problem, despite tech companies sitting collectively on trillions of dollars.

So there we go, this "tech shortage" seems to be mostly self-inflicted IMHO.

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#139

Post by CaptSpify » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 9:34 PM UTC

makesnosense wrote: post #29

I cringe every time I hear someone say it's hard to find talent. I've been a software engineer for over 12 years now and I know I'm good at it. My problem is that I truly suck at interviewing. I have no social issues whatsoever, I'm just a normal guy outside the interview room, but when I do get in there - I'm at my absolute worse. I've been out of work for going on 8 months now and I just don't get it. I've tried ma…

I much prefer: "Here's a project, get it back to me in an hour." I get all tense and nervous when people are watching me work.

I don't mind showing my work, but not while I do it.

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#140

Post by thedufer » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 9:39 PM UTC

Alyoshi wrote: post #117

thedufer wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally, we switched up our process some in an attempt to be able to hire faster (mostly by avoiding false negatives). It used to be standard whiteboard style; we switched to a mix of that and more real-work style interviews. False positives went up pretty significantly, and even after shedding those the general quality was of hires was a bit lower.

How long did you keep the new practices before reverting? Any company making this change could run into the issue of interviewers being well practiced at getting meaningful information out of whiteboard interviews and inexperienced at getting meaningful information out of real-work style interviews. Additionally, hiring successful whiteboard interviewees may actually select for people who are better at getting meanin…

We didn't revert. I've since left, but they're still using the newer method. I believe the decrease in time to fill positions was determined to be worth the decrease in quality. It's been over a year - maybe 2.