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The end of Haiti?

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Re: The end of Haiti?

#51

Post by sailormoon »

ghshephard wrote: post #49
sailormoon wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well then that's the problem, isn't it? Look, my point is that something could have been done to prepare, and was not. Mahmud's talking like it's a no-fault act of god that's going to bring everyone together in a solidarity of fellow suffering - I'm saying, if I was Haitian and I'd somehow managed to survive this disaster, I'd compare to how other countries deal with this kind of thing and probably be more angry than…

I may be wrong, and would appreciate anybody from a third world country educating me, but I don't believe that building code standards are typically on top of the list of properties by which the citizens of those third world companies evaluate their government. Civil Order, Access to Water, Food, Jobs, lack of corruption are probably much, much higher on their minds than "Are proper seismic standards being enforced."…

I also lack this elusive "Third World Perspective" but considering the alarming regularity with which earthquakes shuffle several hundred thousands of their friends, family and neighbours off this mortal coil, perhaps those citizens should, in fact, start encouraging their governments to make building codes and disaster preparation more of a priority.

Re: The end of Haiti?

#52

Post by kiba »

mahmud wrote: post #36
kiba wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Somali have customary laws which allow them to operate and grow their economy despite political chaos. However, it would seem to me that that Haitians have no common law system or a customary kind which would permit the growth of an informal economy.

That's just offensive to Haitians and downright wrong. Somali traditions are the #1 cause of our strife; tribalism. We don't have any "laws", neither written nor verbal. It's all tribal handshakes and the whims of whoever is in charge. If you're referring to Islam, well, that hasn't saved us, or the Iraqis, or Afghanis .. come to think of it, maybe they're better off without a prominent political religious establishm…

I have no interests in "nationhood" and "collective consciousness", or "political will".

I am an individualist anarchist, and is naturally drawn to non-statist paradigm of organization and especially evidence for or against possible non-statist systems.

In any case, your opinion is highly valuable. I now have more information regarding what Somalian think of the situation and society in Somalia, which is often mentioned as a case of real world anarchy.

If there is no law system, then there's no anarchy, and thus only chaos. I found that hard to believe when I hear reports of rising standard of living in Somalia, as well capital investment, among other things.

I was only expressing my belief that there seem to be no alternative system of organization in Haiti would be comparable to Somalia's, thus no hope.

EDIT: this is not to say that there are no civil strides. It would seem to me that foreign interferences from other countries destroy possibilities of peace in the region.

Re: The end of Haiti?

#53

Post by Herring »

sailormoon wrote: post #41
DaniFong wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't climate change (as a consequence of man-made deforestation) a large part of the problems that face Haiti today? http://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov/vis/a000000/a002600/a002640/

The deforestation depicted in those photos is not the result of climate change, but of ill-advised logging activity.

GP said deforestation causing climate change, not deforestation caused by climate change.

Re: The end of Haiti?

#54

Post by ghshephard »

sailormoon wrote: post #44
cpr wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There has been no government, in effect, to date, or worse, a corrupt government that was hurting its own people.

Well then that's the problem, isn't it? Look, my point is that something could have been done to prepare, and was not. Mahmud's talking like it's a no-fault act of god that's going to bring everyone together in a solidarity of fellow suffering - I'm saying, if I was Haitian and I'd somehow managed to survive this disaster, I'd compare to how other countries deal with this kind of thing and probably be more angry than…

I think you should question the strength of your analysis when you appear to be comparing Haiti to not just a First world country, but a G-7 Nation.

"Let me tell you what would happen to the mayor of a Japanese town if he let this happen and then just shrugged his shoulders and claimed there was "no-one to blame". "

Re: The end of Haiti?

#55

Post by berntb »

mahmud wrote: post #48
sailormoon wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well then that's the problem, isn't it? Look, my point is that something could have been done to prepare, and was not. Mahmud's talking like it's a no-fault act of god that's going to bring everyone together in a solidarity of fellow suffering - I'm saying, if I was Haitian and I'd somehow managed to survive this disaster, I'd compare to how other countries deal with this kind of thing and probably be more angry than…

I don't think the Haitians have that sense of 1st World, consumer rights, entitled mindset. Most construction is done by the local guys, up to the budget and specs of the owner. Really. Safety or aesthetics play very little role; you just build what you can afford and you're done with it. They have been hit with a 7.0 Richter earth quake; even the U.N. and government buildings were floored. Sometimes you just don't h…

>>I don't think the Haitians have that sense of 1st World, consumer rights, entitled mindset.

If you want to see something fun regarding this type of mindset, go check Sweden in Malthus' book on population (added in some later edition).

Sweden is today the poster child of the cradle-to-grave nanny state. For good and bad.

Malthus wrote about how self sufficient the Swedes were, compared to the rest of Europe, not blaming and demanding help from the state/nobility... :-)

Re: The end of Haiti?

#56

Post by adrianwaj »

mahmud wrote: post #10

I am from Somalia, and I have witnessed its decay right to its downfall, including the three days during which the government dispersed and the central bank threw out its stash of local currency in large garbage bins. Haiti will not die. For one, the suffering has been universally afflicted on all Haitians. This will strengthen their bond more than anything. Even if warlords and gangs form their own fiefdoms througho…

This will strengthen their bond more than anything

The end of hate, not Haiti.

Re: The end of Haiti?

#57

Post by seldo »

dunstad wrote: post #45
sailormoon wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An earthquake has no one to blame. The event itself does not, it's true. But there certainly is someone to blame for the shoddy construction standards and grievous lack of preparation. The government is entirely accountable for these things.

The buildings were made to withstand hurricanes, not earthquakes. They chose the less frequent of two disasters to be exposed to.

Coming from Trinidad and Tobago, where we get both, I assure you it's possible to build in a way to withstand both.

Re: The end of Haiti?

#58

Post by seldo »

borism wrote: post #28
ars wrote: post #15

Historically disasters (and wars) have the opposite effect. In the short term it's terrible, but long term a disaster usually spurs rebuilding and economic activity that results in a better situation than what was there before.

Pretty ridiculous statement in my opinion. Life goes on, disaster or not. There's supposedly always better situation in the future, it is pretty dubious to claim that wars and cataclysms accelerate long term development.

It depends where you're talking about. In an area reasonably prepared for disasters, they actually do bring about increased prosperity -- Florida has periodic construction booms after hurricanes, and a majority are insured, so financial losses are constrained to the big insurance companies.

On the other hand, even in a developed nation, a major disaster can end the life of an area -- New Orleans is perhaps two-thirds of its former size and looks unlikely to grow.

In this case of Haiti, a steady and dedicated stream of aid could help rebuild the country, but history has shown that the international community's attention to the desperate plight of that nation has always been short-lived.

Sadly, I fear it will be worse than before, and remain so.

Re: The end of Haiti?

#59

Post by philwelch »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #12
tptacek wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hospitals, prisons, drinking water distribution, sewage, housing, electricity, police stations, firefighting capability. Is this a trick question? Haiti didn't have nothing ; it had a very crappy version of most things. Charge Haiti whatever you'd like to build a basic survivable level of civilization. They'll never pay, but that doesn't matter. The alternative is Somalia in the Carribean.

I think it is a reasonable question. There are plenty of places without drinking water and sewage infrastructure of any real note. Why then does this earthquake mean that we should fix Haiti's water/sewage. Why not fix Somalia's instead? Given the comments about Haiti's resources it seems it should be quite rich monetarily, certainly enough to pay for the rapid construction of Hospitals and the like. Yes, we'd want t…

The quick answer to "why not fix Somalia" is "we tried, and they ended up shooting at us, so we left".

Oddly enough, we tried fixing Haiti a few times, too. It's not very successful, but they don't seem to shoot at us quite so much.

Re: The end of Haiti?

#60

Post by JimmyL »

ars wrote: post #15

Historically disasters (and wars) have the opposite effect. In the short term it's terrible, but long term a disaster usually spurs rebuilding and economic activity that results in a better situation than what was there before.

The problem with using that model is that it assumes that once the war/disaster ends, there is a reasonable amount of time (10-15 years) in which the rebuilding can take hold and the economy can develop.

Haiti gets a significant natural disaster every three to four years - generally hurricanes and floods, but in this case, an earthquake. So every time they start to rebuild, they get hit again and it all gets undone.

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