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Old Techies Never Die; They Just Can’t Get Hired as an Industry Moves On (2012)

nytimes.com

101–110 of 137 posts

Re: Old Techies Never Die; They Just Can’t Get Hired as an Industry Moves On (2012)

#101
post #57
post #22

The article has "stay on the cutting edge". Ha! The real leading edge is work that is at least "new, correct, and significant" and published in a peer-reviewed journal of original research in information technology , yes, and also powerful and valuable in practice. So, put on resume that have published in original mathematical statistics for detecting zero-day problems, in artificial intelligence, and in optimization…

> the role of sigma algebras i.e. the definition of probability? yea, i expected ppl to be more interested in that, myself otoh, be careful about minimizing other skill sets. doesn't take much more than basic arithmetic on the math side to understand the linux kernel, but the skills needed to be productive with such an engineering challenge aren't any kind of joke.

It's easy enough in elementary treatments of probability to say what is meant by random variables X and Y are independent. And in both theory and applications, independence is just crucial. Well, what about uncountably infinite collections A and B of random variables being independent? Also, random variables that are functions of independent random variables are independent, etc. The sigma algebra generated by a random variable, or a collection of such, is important to be able to work with. E.g., just in the Poisson process, that is, the vanilla arrival process, need to talk about the time to the next arrival being independent of all of the past of the process.

> Linux kernel

Difficult? Right. No doubt by now it's huge, and I have to believe has many patches. And I have to suspect that it's not well documented. And people that use it especially want it for high end work where they make modifications, and then the problems of complexity, documentation, testing, etc. get much worse.

Difficult? Yes. Leading edge, not in the usual sense of knowledge. More broadly, tough to make progress in any sense if still have to spend much effort with the Linux kernel -- we're supposed to be past that by now. This may be wrong for some niche need, but people should try to keep their careers out of such niches.

Linux kernel performance? Might want some math there!

Re: Old Techies Never Die; They Just Can’t Get Hired as an Industry Moves On (2012)

#102
post #12
post #7

So I turned 55 years old last Monday, am employed as a senior software engineer for a startup in the voter education and civic engagement space, and I guess I'm qualified to comment on this. I read this same refrain over and over, and if I peer just a little bit between the lines I think I perceive a common pattern. A lot of these people are just not up to keeping up. Learning the next thing is a wearisome burden for…

I'll agree. In the office I work in (Florida) I would say half the employees are 40+ (I'm one of them) and we're doing Android development. On my own team, I'm the youngest at 46 (and ironically, the one with the most seniority on my team). I work with people who have 30 to 40 years of experience in the computer industry but only a few with Android. And it's worked out just fine for us.

Cool!

Re: Old Techies Never Die; They Just Can’t Get Hired as an Industry Moves On (2012)

#103

My uncle is a 65 year old COBOL programmer who has never been out of work.

I have a couple of friends still workign COBOL and some weird hierarchical network database system that predates relational databases. They get paid insane money, work from home and don't work a forty hour week. I'm guessing they are closing in on 50. Every now and again someone tries to get rid of them but their is too much domain and technical knowledge, and you can't just swap in some outsourced guys.

It's a tricky career path but if you just want to count down the clock on your career and build up cash for early retirement it does have it's benefits.

Re: Old Techies Never Die; They Just Can’t Get Hired as an Industry Moves On (2012)

#104
post #84
post #22

The article has "stay on the cutting edge". Ha! The real leading edge is work that is at least "new, correct, and significant" and published in a peer-reviewed journal of original research in information technology , yes, and also powerful and valuable in practice. So, put on resume that have published in original mathematical statistics for detecting zero-day problems, in artificial intelligence, and in optimization…

To those starting on a similar path (self-taught, but interested in the mathematical part), what would you say? What was easy to progress in, where did you flounder and why the difference? Is a Ph.D. requisite?

Well, for nearly any topic in applied math, there are some really simple treatments; they might be fun to read, but they are like a bicycle -- don't want to use them to cross the Rockies.

Instead, often want the real stuff. For that, usually need a good version of the math prerequisites or will struggle.

Where I had good prerequisites, I did fine. Otherwise I struggled.

The graduate work that did me the most good was some quite serious work in optimization, measure theory, functional analysis, probability theory, and stochastic processes.

So, then, presto, bingo, look at Fourier theory, L^1, L^2, etc. and prefer it to the best ice cream and cake. Gorgeous. Powerful. Great fun -- and I understand it. Before the grad studies, I was never quite sure what the heck had a Fourier transform and what didn't, when I could interchange order of integration, etc. It was like driving a car but not knowing how many wheels it had. At one point I got pushed hard into the fast Fourier transform, and taken narrowly that was okay, but the narrow view is not the one really want, and I had to struggle with the broader view. E.g., if have the power spectrum of the noise and that of the signal, what filter do you want? Generally if do know what linear filter want, then can use the FFT to implement it. At one point it would have been good to have done such things, but I didn't know how. Now I'm sure I could read it, likely from N. Weiner and then from more recent sources and find it easy reading and/or just derive it myself.

Just why is the power spectrum the Fourier transform of the auto-covariance or some such result? Then I didn't quite have the background for that; now I'm tempted just to derive it myself.

Ergodic theory? It was also great fun. Before the grad school work, ergodic was just a mystery.

Now I can browse and thoroughly understand and enjoy Luenberger, Optimization by Vector Space Techniques, e.g., Kalman filtering, deterministic optimal control, high end versions of Lagrange multipliers. A lot of it is based on the Hahn-Banach theorem, and I saw a rock solid version of that. Before grad school, Luenberger would have been a bit much -- I would have struggled, often not quite sure just what I was doing, limited to some painting by the numbers.

Before grad school, at times I wanted to know Kalman filtering and deterministic optimal control but struggled. It would have helped for me to have known those topics.

I wrote my dissertation in stochastic optimal control, but I wished I'd been able to have a good, high end course in such things, including with stochastic differential equations, etc., but there wasn't much in courses to pick from. The number of US departments that know and teach that stuff is tiny. Off and on I considered just some independent reading courses for that material, but various exogenous events caused me to run short on time and cash and rush to finish instead.

Before the grad work, I found statistics to be a cookbook of bad tasting meals.

Now the usual statistics books bore me; I don't know of a really good statistics book; and I usually end up just deriving what I need for myself. With a good background in probability, that's the way to go.

I had a pretty good undergrad major in math, and when that was enough as prerequisites I did well. E.g., I touched on linear algebra as an ugrad but wanted more. So, I got a stack of books on LA and dug in. Of course, the best was Halmos, Finite Dimensional Vector Spaces, but that didn't cover everything closely related, e.g., applications to calculus of several variables, numerical linear algebra, connections with multi-variate statistics, etc., and I got books on those for more.

My ugrad work didn't do really well with multi-variable calculus -- no wonder because too soon really need measure theory. So, I got partly caught up on such calculus on my own and got a lot more in grad school, but I still don't know differential geometry well enough to find general relativity easy and wish I did. At least now I have the prerequisites to learn differential geometry. E.g., as an ugrad, the courses never covered the inverse and implicit function theorems (just local nonlinear versions of what is obvious in the general case of solving linear equations), but I got some good treatments in my independent reading.

E.g., in computing, sure, Bachus-Naur form was easy enough, really is basically just set theory, but I never got how to take such BNF and automatically write a parser. Once it might have been nice to have done that! Or just use Yacc, right?

> Ph.D. requisite?

A good Ph.D. is a good thing. It's the training in how to work with things that are new.

So, learn to zip through a lot of stuff don't need to know well, where K-12 and college and even grad courses have an implicit norm that such zip work is not good. Good? Heck, it's crucial!

Learn the pros/cons of stuff that is new. Do begin to lose patience with things that are old -- too often they are not as good as might assume in a course and should be improved on or even just set aside.

In doing research, just have to look at the material in a more effective way than the usual way as a student trying to make good grades. No longer trying to make good grades and, instead, are trying to do something new, e.g., improve on the stuff in the text books or papers.

Also are no longer hanging on every word of a prof and, instead, are trying to do own stuff.

Some of the coursework for a Ph.D. is also usually darned good. At a good school, i.e., a top research university, the difference in quality is like that between a dinner at McDonald's and one at a Michelin 3 star -- no joke. Or, if have a course in ugrad school and think that the course was fine, if get a course from a good researcher, very bright, who knows the material from various approaches, can get a LOT more. The good researchers are smarter -- and not by just a little bit.

My view is that math, and mostly the advanced stuff and often new stuff, will be the key to the future of computing, at least until the software is able to do math better than humans. Computing only what we can think of without math will become way too limiting.

Re: Old Techies Never Die; They Just Can’t Get Hired as an Industry Moves On (2012)

#105
post #66
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a 34 year old I always like hearing of people who actually manage to pull off a long career, it gives me hope. If you notice, a lot of these people in that article are in hardware design: electrical engineering, probably Verilog and the like. A lot of that work has successfully been outsourced which I think is the real cause of the decline. I suspect it didn't look like it was a particularly bad field to be in unt…

You said: "And who wants to hire a 45 year old junior web developer?" That smacks of pure ageism to me. Just recast it to a racial context to see: "And who wants to hire a black junior web developer?"

Yes, that's the problem. Our society fortunately no longer tolerates overt discrimination by race, sex or religion, but unfortunately still tolerates discrimination by age, overt at the low end and thinly veiled at the high end. We need to put an end to that.

Re: Old Techies Never Die; They Just Can’t Get Hired as an Industry Moves On (2012)

#106
post #77
post #7

So I turned 55 years old last Monday, am employed as a senior software engineer for a startup in the voter education and civic engagement space, and I guess I'm qualified to comment on this. I read this same refrain over and over, and if I peer just a little bit between the lines I think I perceive a common pattern. A lot of these people are just not up to keeping up. Learning the next thing is a wearisome burden for…

Not everyone has the luxury of "considering another line of work".

That's crazy. There are tons of other things you can do that aren't programming related to make money. Especially if you are not passionate about keeping up in the tech space, you're likely to have interests elsewhere. True, some doors will be closed to you, but the economy is amazingly diverse.

Re: Old Techies Never Die; They Just Can’t Get Hired as an Industry Moves On (2012)

#107
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has gone the other way I would say no. Getting to the forefront in biotech is a 10 year full time journey. I have met a few developers who have tried to learn, but they have all struggled. Having said this don’t worry, if you think the job prospects are bad for old developers they are far worse for old scientists.

Biotech also pays a lot less. If you look at current jobs such as "bioinformatics programmer", the salaries are somewhere between a biologist and a software engineer even though it requires more knowledge than either. Remember, biologists start off at around 35-50k/yr on jr. level, while SEs start at ~100k+. Basically, it is better to be a junior level SE than a super senior bioinformatician.

"even though it requires more knowledge than either"

It doesn't usually require more knowledge. The majority of bioinformaticians that I know are pretty poor coders, and know just enough Perl or Python to count some stuff up an do some stats on it or plot a graph. They have no idea how to set up a server, write maintanable code, design a database well or keep a website secure. Obviosuly there are exceptions, but the majority that I have worked with are junior level programmers with knowledge of biology.

Re: Old Techies Never Die; They Just Can’t Get Hired as an Industry Moves On (2012)

#108
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a 34 year old I always like hearing of people who actually manage to pull off a long career, it gives me hope. If you notice, a lot of these people in that article are in hardware design: electrical engineering, probably Verilog and the like. A lot of that work has successfully been outsourced which I think is the real cause of the decline. I suspect it didn't look like it was a particularly bad field to be in unt…

> And who wants to hire a 45 year old junior web developer? That sounds pretty awesome, actually. Who wouldn't want to add that wealth of experience to their web repo?

But the kiddies often want an expert in MongoDb to solve their relational problems for them.

Re: Old Techies Never Die; They Just Can’t Get Hired as an Industry Moves On (2012)

#109
post #107
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Biotech also pays a lot less. If you look at current jobs such as "bioinformatics programmer", the salaries are somewhere between a biologist and a software engineer even though it requires more knowledge than either. Remember, biologists start off at around 35-50k/yr on jr. level, while SEs start at ~100k+. Basically, it is better to be a junior level SE than a super senior bioinformatician.

"even though it requires more knowledge than either" It doesn't usually require more knowledge. The majority of bioinformaticians that I know are pretty poor coders, and know just enough Perl or Python to count some stuff up an do some stats on it or plot a graph. They have no idea how to set up a server, write maintanable code, design a database well or keep a website secure. Obviosuly there are exceptions, but the…

"knowledge of biology"

I am not sure you fully appreciate what " knowledge of biology" means. As a programmer who did a lot of molecular biology in the past - doing molecular biology is not simple. The learning curve for a lot of biological topics - especially the ones that get close to organic chemistry is really steep.

Re: Old Techies Never Die; They Just Can’t Get Hired as an Industry Moves On (2012)

#110
post #7

So I turned 55 years old last Monday, am employed as a senior software engineer for a startup in the voter education and civic engagement space, and I guess I'm qualified to comment on this. I read this same refrain over and over, and if I peer just a little bit between the lines I think I perceive a common pattern. A lot of these people are just not up to keeping up. Learning the next thing is a wearisome burden for…

Yes the key is keep learning - unless you keep up you will end up on the scrap heap very quickly. I am not quite as old (45) and I still love learning new things, but it does take more effort than when I was younger.

There's learning and there's learning tho'. Some languages genuinely give you new capabilities, e.g. if you want massive concurrency try Erlang or lazy evaluation try Haskell. That's learning that you will be able to do for a lifetime.

But there are 100 javascript frameworks that all do the same thing! After a few years you will stop being motivated to re-learn re-inventing the wheel too. But all the jobs expect you to know whatever's hot right now. That's not engineering, it's fashion.

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