American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014) • Hacker News Board

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#131

Post by serge2k » Mon, Nov 09, 2015, 1:32 AM UTC

such_a_casual wrote: post #125

serge2k wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You realize the reason people move to 2 incomes is because they can't afford to live off one? You realize that a lot of people don't have savings because they live paycheck to paycheck trying to survive?

Both of your questions would be answered by reading the aforementioned books and by learning more about personal finance. Also: https://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance

So no, and you will just continue with the condescending assumption that anyone questioning you doesn't know anything?

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#132

Post by notacoward » Mon, Nov 09, 2015, 1:35 AM UTC

pen2l wrote: post #18

philwelch wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Babies are full of potential. Fresh college graduates...let's be honest...are less so.

Roughly 34% of Americans go on to complete college. Strictly and mathematically speaking, the fresh college graduates are a much better bet than babies.

College grads are a "better bet" in terms of the probability that they'll succeed, but not in terms of additional investment making a difference. Spend time or money on/with a recent college grad who's already primed to succeed, and neither you nor society will get much that you wouldn't have already. Spend that same time or money on/with a child whose mind is still malleable and whose future is still uncertain . . now you're talking about a real possibility of making a difference.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#133

Post by simplexion » Mon, Nov 09, 2015, 1:39 AM UTC

tvanantwerp wrote: post #21

tomp wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, most babies will become fresh college graduates (or not even that), so I'm not sure I really follow your line of thought.

When your kid is still a baby, you can dream that he/she will become a neurosurgeon or an astronaut. By the time the child has actually grown up and graduated with a degree in French poetry, your best hopes for them are dead.

If your best hopes for your children are their career path you are doing it wrong.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#134

Post by x5n1 » Mon, Nov 09, 2015, 1:43 AM UTC

nommm-nommm wrote: post #121

Call me callous but I always thought one of the most important lessons a child should learn is "its not all about you." I am so amazed when I see parents nowadays devoting their entire life to making sure their children are spared of any tiny little inconvenience. These children will be very poorly adjusted and these parents are rarely happy.

Could it be that these parents are providing their kids what they wanted when they were children? That they are living vicariously through their parenting.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#135

Post by javajosh » Mon, Nov 09, 2015, 1:45 AM UTC

nommm-nommm wrote: post #121

Call me callous but I always thought one of the most important lessons a child should learn is "its not all about you." I am so amazed when I see parents nowadays devoting their entire life to making sure their children are spared of any tiny little inconvenience. These children will be very poorly adjusted and these parents are rarely happy.

What if you were to engineer a situation with your kids where you a) teach them how to do something useful, and then b) put them in a situation where that useful thing needs to be done. If they don't take the cue, no problem. If they miss it, maybe have a 3rd party (like an aunt or an uncle) pitch in. Then maybe have that 3rd party ask the child if they know how to do that thing - and get the kid to get in the habit of volunteering their effort if it's helpful to those around them. (It's important that the prompts not come from the parent since the action becomes "acquiescing to authority" instead of "pitching in for the common good".)

Of course, there's an unfortunate prisoner's dilemma in that if two kids are involved, and one is volunteering all the time, the lazy one thinks, "Ha, sweet, I'm so clever I never do any work and things still get done!" Not really sure how to get around this - perhaps develop a turn-based cooperation game where two siblings take turns helping, effectively coopting the helpfulness of one to blunt the selfishness of the other. If they both defect, then I suppose you have to create an "existential baseline" that they don't want to endure, involving a) no toys, b) no freedom, c) bland food. But that's problematic because it turns you into a jailor, and it turns cooperation into "that thing you do to satisfy authority" again.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#136

Post by roel_v » Mon, Nov 09, 2015, 1:46 AM UTC

cwbrandsma wrote: post #69

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your statement is a performative contradiction. Your proposition is that a two-year old is akin to a terrorist who cannot be negotiated with, but your suggesting boundaries be drawn as a resolution presupposes that in fact they can be negotiated with (negotiation necessarily implying the setting of boundaries), hence negating your point.

Wait, are you saying you can negotiate with terrorist or with 2 year olds? I have no experience with terrorists, but I have five kids. There are absolutely times when a two year cannot be negotiated with. And there are times children have to be taught that under no uncertain times their current behavior is acceptable. And that time is a temper tantrum.

He's saying that beating children doesn't help because they cannot be negotiated with. Children don't have the brain development to respond to threats. It's like beating someone with an epileptic seizure until he stops. That doesn't mean disruptive behavior doesn't have to be or can't be dealt with, just that beating children ('so they'll think twice next time') doesn't have positive effects (i.e. it doesn't stop or prevent the behavior next time) but it does have negative effects (teaches violence, weakens the trust bond, etc.)

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#137

Post by deciplex » Mon, Nov 09, 2015, 1:58 AM UTC

such_a_casual wrote: post #80

cesarbs wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but two-earner households are often also more economically fragile Can you elaborate on that? It doesn't make sense to me. When we were on a single income in my family, it felt a lot more fragile than now that we have two incomes.

It's explained in the book I mentioned. You would also need to educate yourself on personal finance by reading some other books to get a more holistic picture (The Millionaire Next Door is a good place to start). There's three things you need to understand about personal finance: 1. The first is that shit happens and most people don't plan for it (because they haven't been educated on personal finance). Most resource…

A two income home is like putting valuable data in a RAID-0 HDD array.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#138

Post by tinalumfoil » Mon, Nov 09, 2015, 2:00 AM UTC

Vexs wrote: post #3

While I think his insights on how we treat our children is amazingly insightful, and I love how it's described as a religion (the point that children are our sacred cows is very good in particular) his attempt to relate it to marriages seems shoehorned at best. There's a lot of problems with the way we treat children, but I think it's relation to marriage is the least of our issues. But seriously, the whole "children…

I don't think he's being insightful at all. All his observations seem to be shallow and his conclusions are weak.

> parenthood became a religion in America...Nothing in life is allowed to be more important than our children...a human achieves its peak value at birth and declines thereafter

Most Americans tend to believe their children come first. This isn't a religion, it's an evolutionary instinct. A species can't continue if its organisms don't put enough effort into their offspring if their offspring are completely defenseless for the first decade of their life and only 3 are born to every female. If I kick a 40-year-old out of my house he'll find a hotel to stay at temporarily and be fine. If I dump a 2-year-old on the street, they'll be roadkill within the hour. Caring more about children isn't any more unique to this time period than it is to this species.

> Another sign of the parenthood religion is that it has become totally unacceptable in our culture to say anything bad about our children, let alone admit that we don’t like them all of the time.

I grew up in a household where my parents weren't afraid to tell the truth to me and it was pretty brutal. There's enough negativity at school that it feels like people are surrounding you at all sides with insecurities. Honesty isn't bad but if your kid goes to public school he already knows where he falls short. Also, saying things behind your kid's back isn't any better. It'll come back around to them.

> Mothers are also holy in a way that fathers are not expected to be. Mothers live in a clean, cheerful world filled with primary colors and children’s songs, and they don’t think about sex.

I don't know where this is coming from. Maybe this was Jesus' ideal for a mom, but nowadays the ideal mom seems to be one that argues over who's carpooling next week and buys their 16-year-old birth control just in case. I think anyone who can could and do laundry probably automatically counts as a good mother nowadays.

I think the problem is the author treats kids more like a car than a living being. Your car's muffler isn't going to get fixed until you admit it's broken. You don't fix your kid by bringing him into the shop one day after work. Being a parent requires being a teacher, boss and friend at the same time. In no way is "owner" ever part of that definition.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#139

Post by tptacek » Mon, Nov 09, 2015, 2:00 AM UTC

adrianlmm wrote: post #122

dang wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is "Be civil" a rule here? Because if it weren't, incivility would dominate and destroy the community. This doesn't stop applying just because someone else did worse. On HN, please post civilly and substantively or not at all.

I understand your point, I just don't think I wasn't being civil.

Not extrapolating a visceral disagreement with someone to either a condemnation of that person or a diagnosis of mental illness or dysfunction seems almost like the essence of HN civility.

"Don't call people sociopaths" seemed almost too banal to comment on, but this is is a pattern that recurs several times a day on HN.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#140

Post by such_a_casual » Mon, Nov 09, 2015, 2:07 AM UTC

serge2k wrote: post #131

such_a_casual wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both of your questions would be answered by reading the aforementioned books and by learning more about personal finance. Also: https://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance

So no, and you will just continue with the condescending assumption that anyone questioning you doesn't know anything?

I'm not sure how you would like me to answer false assertions? Especially since my post is clearly about people with a mortgage (as is the book I recommended). The best I can do is point you in the right direction to properly educate yourself.