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Interview by a 15 Year Old

paulgraham.com

51–60 of 101 posts

Re: Interview by a 15 Year Old

#51
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "What should every kid learn" if we were to start from scratch you think? Depends on socio economic class I would imagine. If you belong to middle class in India for example, you would want you kids to buy into 'the cult of achievement' where achievement is defined by how many people you can prove that you are better than. Because this is only one of the few methods available to Indian middle class to ensure that h…

Is it fair to say that there isn't (or may not be) a such thing as first principles at all, outside of acculturation, if education is so context dependent?

Kids need to learn to read. Society works sooo much better when you can assume every adult can read.

Give man a fish vs. teach to fish..

Re: Interview by a 15 Year Old

#52
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At one time, not everyone automatically agreed that everyone should learn to type, or learn basic computer literacy. Or to look back even further in history, at one point not everyone could read and write. Imagine if we could expect a basic level of programming skill from everyone. Not the ability to write an operating system kernel from scratch; just the ability needed to put together a shell pipeline to get a job d…

> Or to look back even further in history, at one point not everyone could read and write. We still have that, in 1st world countries. (I've used the wikipedia entry for the US, but rates are similar across EU) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_the_United_States > This government study showed that 21% to 23% of adult Americans were not "able to locate information in text", could not "make low-level inferences…

I wonder, would those people be able to do those things if the information were presented by spoken word? I suspect (and could be way wrong, of course) that this is more about ability to understand stuff in general, and not really related to being able to read and write.

Re: Interview by a 15 Year Old

#53
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At one time, not everyone automatically agreed that everyone should learn to type, or learn basic computer literacy. Or to look back even further in history, at one point not everyone could read and write. Imagine if we could expect a basic level of programming skill from everyone. Not the ability to write an operating system kernel from scratch; just the ability needed to put together a shell pipeline to get a job d…

"just the ability needed to put together a shell pipeline to get a job done, or a twenty-line script to automate some tedious task. Imagine how much that would change everyday life." Well unfortunately like learning a foreign language if you don't constantly use those skills they are near worthless. Especially as you get older. And in one way it's quite a bit different than learning a foreign language. There is a gre…

Could this be an argument for making computers harder to use by requiring programming for common tasks?

Re: Interview by a 15 Year Old

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you want to teach kids problem solving skills, logic, breaking down a problem, etc. then that makes much more sense as it is applicable in many areas of life but spending an hour a week for several months teaching a kid how to make a little game in Python isn't really going to benefit them at all in the long run in my opinion. I'm willing to bet it will do more good for 90% of them than learning about Chemical Bo…

as I understand you, you think learning a programming language will do more good for 90% of students than being exposed to chemistry, physics, algebra, history, literature, and whatever other nonesense, which I take you to mean other things commonly studied in high school like art, psychology, a foreign language, economics, etc. where, may I ask, did you ever hear about Hooke's law, chemical bonds, quadratics or Kakf…

>If you weren't the recipient of such an education, you couldn't prove your point.

Or I could have just googled "spring physics" as that's one of the few things I vaguely remember from highschool, named Kafka because that's one of the only two books I've actually read before deciding literature is boring/waste of time, chemical bonds - the same thing as "spring physics" and quadratics I actually needed in my day job which is why I said 90% - this kind of knowledge can be easily acquired if you need it.

Majority of that "multi-faceted" 4 year curriculum ended up being a waste of time, and ironically I am probably in the top % of my peers in the amount of knowledge I retained.

On the other hand basic programming is about as enabling as knowing how to do basic probability calculations or writing in formal tone. I never argued about first order logic or learning reasoning so I don't know why you're bringing that argument up - I said that basic programming lets you do stuff that's useful in majority of office work - it helps analyze/transform/collect data and interact with software in a more productive manner. You don't even need to learn programming just going trough the process should give you some insight so when you encounter a problem you can know what to search for and go trough the motions to use an existing solution (eg. knowing how to run a script you downloaded because you know what a script is and what it's supposed to do, or knowing how to modify some formula/query even if you couldn't write it from scratch)

Re: Interview by a 15 Year Old

#55
post #45
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "it's a mistake to start too young" > "don't start before 23" Oh Silicon Valley. I've been in tech in the Bay Area for about 5 years now, regularly attending various events and being a part of the community, and most startup founders under 30-35 are ridiculously naive and boring, with very little to show over time. People over 30 with a decade or so of industry and work experience tend to be much more realistic and…

I'm kinda confused. It looked like you are also confirming PG's observation but you ended with a skeptical tone. Anyway this was interesting to me because most people tend to overly support youngster's into entrepreneurship but this looked more realistic and practical.

Agreeing with the principle and disagreeing with the number, I think.

Re: Interview by a 15 Year Old

#56
> I wouldn't advise people to try to start startups before about 23. Before that you should be exploring.

Man, I wish he had written this five years ago. I focused far too early and had to spend a lot of time correcting that course. Finally in the thick of exploring and loving it. Yes, there's hints in other essays about this but the hard age limit says that in a way the others don't. I was a incredibly dumb smart student.

Re: Interview by a 15 Year Old

#57
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even then I don't really see the point. If you want to teach kids problem solving skills, logic, breaking down a problem, etc. then that makes much more sense as it is applicable in many areas of life but spending an hour a week for several months teaching a kid how to make a little game in Python isn't really going to benefit them at all in the long run in my opinion.

>If you want to teach kids problem solving skills, logic, breaking down a problem, etc. then that makes much more sense as it is applicable in many areas of life but spending an hour a week for several months teaching a kid how to make a little game in Python isn't really going to benefit them at all in the long run in my opinion. I'm willing to bet it will do more good for 90% of them than learning about Chemical Bo…

>can reason trough a simple SQL query or write a non trivial excel formula

I can't do that.

I have written few very basic python/java programs (maybe 200 lines max, very poor irc-bot was my triumph). And at the office I'm the local computer guru. "Let me show you how you can search a string in excel. Note that big and small letters aren't always the same thing." I shit you not.

I think over-learning this stuff really doesn't hurt. Maybe people would grasp what is easy to program and what is difficult. These days you sometimes run into attitudes like "we could ask this SQL data as excel chart, but it's probably ten thousand dollar coding project. So we don't even ask."

Re: Interview by a 15 Year Old

#58
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you want to teach kids problem solving skills, logic, breaking down a problem, etc. then that makes much more sense as it is applicable in many areas of life but spending an hour a week for several months teaching a kid how to make a little game in Python isn't really going to benefit them at all in the long run in my opinion. I'm willing to bet it will do more good for 90% of them than learning about Chemical Bo…

>can reason trough a simple SQL query or write a non trivial excel formula I can't do that. I have written few very basic python/java programs (maybe 200 lines max, very poor irc-bot was my triumph). And at the office I'm the local computer guru. "Let me show you how you can search a string in excel. Note that big and small letters aren't always the same thing." I shit you not. I think over-learning this stuff really…

>I can't do that.

If you know enough programming to write a IRC bot I think you can.

I'm sure you'd figure out how to get data out of some Access like tool - eg. ERP system with tool to build custom query/reports, and I doubt you would have a hard time writing excel formulas with conditions and such.

Seeing how you used python if you found a script online that say converted some files you would know how to run that.

I'm not saying everyone needs to be a programmer but knowing the basics actually enables you to use computers much more efficiently and considering that computers are used literally everywhere nowdays it translates to productivity and real world problem solving.

Re: Interview by a 15 Year Old

#59
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm kinda confused. It looked like you are also confirming PG's observation but you ended with a skeptical tone. Anyway this was interesting to me because most people tend to overly support youngster's into entrepreneurship but this looked more realistic and practical.

> It looked like you are also confirming PG's observation but you ended with a skeptical tone. Both of these things are necessary on HN if you want to maximize the number of upvotes.

I'm also excited about my first comment with 4 upvotes :P

Re: Interview by a 15 Year Old

#60
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>can reason trough a simple SQL query or write a non trivial excel formula I can't do that. I have written few very basic python/java programs (maybe 200 lines max, very poor irc-bot was my triumph). And at the office I'm the local computer guru. "Let me show you how you can search a string in excel. Note that big and small letters aren't always the same thing." I shit you not. I think over-learning this stuff really…

>I can't do that. If you know enough programming to write a IRC bot I think you can. I'm sure you'd figure out how to get data out of some Access like tool - eg. ERP system with tool to build custom query/reports, and I doubt you would have a hard time writing excel formulas with conditions and such. Seeing how you used python if you found a script online that say converted some files you would know how to run that.…

Given lots and lots of time, sure. :D

I have to admit that so far I have been completely unable to use my coding skills for anything practical. There would have been a situation where HTML chart had to be converted to excel chart. It was way too corrupted to automate in any meaningful way.

But coding gives me perspective. If somebody tries to sell software at my job, I get to interview them. Nobody else there is quite as good at spotting computer related bullshit.

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