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Interview by a 15 Year Old

paulgraham.com

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Re: Interview by a 15 Year Old

#31

Post by ploxiln »

myth_buster wrote: post #19

Is there anything else that isn’t taught to young students that you wish would be incorporated into the material, or any other thoughts on education? I can't comment on the US education system, but back home I think one of the most important ingredient missing from my school education was _Critical Thinking_ [0]. I happened to stumble upon this field by happenstance and was baffled why this is not integral to our edu…

I've never heard of a school (in the US) that didn't claim to teach "critical thinking skills" and "how to learn".

Of course most don't, even though they know these platitudes are what they need to publicly espouse. It's a pretty big topic really...

Re: Interview by a 15 Year Old

#32

Post by vezzy-fnord »

scrollaway wrote: post #13
kozukumi wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even then I don't really see the point. If you want to teach kids problem solving skills, logic, breaking down a problem, etc. then that makes much more sense as it is applicable in many areas of life but spending an hour a week for several months teaching a kid how to make a little game in Python isn't really going to benefit them at all in the long run in my opinion.

You don't see the point in teaching kids the fundamentals of how every machine in their life works? Media and politicians right now are abusing the fact that a large amount of the population is tech-illiterate. People can't comment on issues that affect their lives in major, invisible ways because they don't know the implication of, say for example, banning encryption (cf. uk politics currently). This has to change a…

Learning an ALGOL-like notation doesn't magically make you competent to speak of cryptography. In fact, it almost by definition does not teach you the fundamentals.

There's no reason to believe programming classes will be at all useful for anything, other than to impart false knowledge.

Re: Interview by a 15 Year Old

#33

Post by jonesb6 »

kercker wrote: post #2

"I think all kids should learn how to program at some point. I'm not sure what's the right age." I do not think all kids should learn how to program. I think programming is just one of many skills that one can master, not a must-have skill.

Honestly I think you have to take it into the current context. Off the top of my head if I had to give the best method for raising you socioeconomic class in the United States it would start with either "Start your own business", or "learn to program".

That said I'm still on the tutoring mailing list for my university's C.S. department, and so many people jump into it and then fall off a cliff. We are forcing an entire generation into field that many will not be successful in.

IMO we're pushing a mass of people in a direction with peaks, valleys, and cliffs, without taking responsibility for the numerous negative outcomes that will ensue.

"But we need more people in STEM!"

"But not everyone wants, or will excel in, STEM!"

"..."

Re: Interview by a 15 Year Old

#34

Post by jarek »

SRasch wrote: post #16

"The combination of forces that produced the default curriculum was so random" This seems true and sad. What would be a first principles approach to "What should every kid learn" if we were to start from scratch you think?

> What would be a first principles approach to "What should every kid learn" if we were to start from scratch you think?

It's a question humans have been asking for centuries, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emile,_or_On_Education

Re: Interview by a 15 Year Old

#35

Post by larrys »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #24
kercker wrote: post #2

"I think all kids should learn how to program at some point. I'm not sure what's the right age." I do not think all kids should learn how to program. I think programming is just one of many skills that one can master, not a must-have skill.

At one time, not everyone automatically agreed that everyone should learn to type, or learn basic computer literacy. Or to look back even further in history, at one point not everyone could read and write. Imagine if we could expect a basic level of programming skill from everyone. Not the ability to write an operating system kernel from scratch; just the ability needed to put together a shell pipeline to get a job d…

"just the ability needed to put together a shell pipeline to get a job done, or a twenty-line script to automate some tedious task. Imagine how much that would change everyday life."

Well unfortunately like learning a foreign language if you don't constantly use those skills they are near worthless. Especially as you get older. And in one way it's quite a bit different than learning a foreign language. There is a great deal of latitude to make mistakes in, say, Spanish. If you don't have it even slightly correct people can still piece together what you are saying. With programming as everyone knows it's got to be near 100% accurate in syntax or it's not going to run and/or give correct results. I agree that being able to do things in the shell is helpful if you are somewhat regularly doing that type of work. I question how useful it is if someone learns that in high school or college and then needs to apply it to do a task years down the road.

Edit: In other words it's not like learning how to ride a bike or play tennis.

Re: Interview by a 15 Year Old

#36

Post by rhizome »

dominotw wrote: post #27
SRasch wrote: post #16

"The combination of forces that produced the default curriculum was so random" This seems true and sad. What would be a first principles approach to "What should every kid learn" if we were to start from scratch you think?

> "What should every kid learn" if we were to start from scratch you think? Depends on socio economic class I would imagine. If you belong to middle class in India for example, you would want you kids to buy into 'the cult of achievement' where achievement is defined by how many people you can prove that you are better than. Because this is only one of the few methods available to Indian middle class to ensure that h…

Is it fair to say that there isn't (or may not be) a such thing as first principles at all, outside of acculturation, if education is so context dependent?

Re: Interview by a 15 Year Old

#37

Post by SixSigma »

> Sometimes to the extent of redefining the playing field so that the obstacle is no longer in the way.

And sometimes, as Marcus Aurelius said : The impediment to action advances action. What stands in the way becomes the way.

Re: Interview by a 15 Year Old

#38

Post by buckpassing »

moonchrome wrote: post #9
kozukumi wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even then I don't really see the point. If you want to teach kids problem solving skills, logic, breaking down a problem, etc. then that makes much more sense as it is applicable in many areas of life but spending an hour a week for several months teaching a kid how to make a little game in Python isn't really going to benefit them at all in the long run in my opinion.

>If you want to teach kids problem solving skills, logic, breaking down a problem, etc. then that makes much more sense as it is applicable in many areas of life but spending an hour a week for several months teaching a kid how to make a little game in Python isn't really going to benefit them at all in the long run in my opinion. I'm willing to bet it will do more good for 90% of them than learning about Chemical Bo…

as I understand you, you think learning a programming language will do more good for 90% of students than being exposed to chemistry, physics, algebra, history, literature, and whatever other nonesense, which I take you to mean other things commonly studied in high school like art, psychology, a foreign language, economics, etc.

where, may I ask, did you ever hear about Hooke's law, chemical bonds, quadratics or Kakfa? You're reference to these things, in the hopes they'd support your rather silly claim, shows that a multi-faceted education is a good thing. If you weren't the recipient of such an education, you couldn't prove your point.

problem solving, logic, etc can be taught outside of programming. I was taught first order logic through a philosophy course. it seems like you think programming can teach you all the important forms of reasoning.

Re: Interview by a 15 Year Old

#39

Post by rustynails »

jonesb6 wrote: post #33
kercker wrote: post #2

"I think all kids should learn how to program at some point. I'm not sure what's the right age." I do not think all kids should learn how to program. I think programming is just one of many skills that one can master, not a must-have skill.

Honestly I think you have to take it into the current context. Off the top of my head if I had to give the best method for raising you socioeconomic class in the United States it would start with either "Start your own business", or "learn to program". That said I'm still on the tutoring mailing list for my university's C.S. department, and so many people jump into it and then fall off a cliff. We are forcing an enti…

The good thing is that most kids will reject a career path placed on them. My older but young child does not have my love of software development but loves mechanical and electrical design. He 'hates' programming. My other slightly younger child loves writing stories, although he is gifted (as per WISC) with mathematical reasoning (if I recall the term correctly). He has shown a natural understanding of programming, but no interest. I consider his thinking much broader.

I love my kids different interests. I think the 'learn programming in school' is highly overrated, unless it's a component of something bigger eg. Logic, technology).

Re: Interview by a 15 Year Old

#40

Post by it_learnses »

myth_buster wrote: post #19

Is there anything else that isn’t taught to young students that you wish would be incorporated into the material, or any other thoughts on education? I can't comment on the US education system, but back home I think one of the most important ingredient missing from my school education was _Critical Thinking_ [0]. I happened to stumble upon this field by happenstance and was baffled why this is not integral to our edu…

I agree with this. Instead of focusing so much on sports, arts, math, coding, etc., we should be focusing more on critical thinking skills. Rather now we just encourage everybody to join the rat race by picking whichever field will be most profitable for the next 20 years. It happens to be programming now.
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