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A new approach to China

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Re: A new approach to China

#341

Post by youngian »

ErrantX wrote: post #66
boundlessdreamz wrote: post #6

This is incredible. This is the first time, I have seen a LARGE company * Putting its users above profits * Stand up to Chinese Government. Since accounts of human rights activists were targeted, this operation was clearly done at the behest of Chinese Government. I'm disgusted by the levels to which the Chinese Government can stoop. It is time the world stands up to China. If a corporation, whose main aim is to gene…

I think the most amazing thing here is the way they are going about this. I think it would be naive to imagine that this is a move based solely on ethics (but, then, you never know - I wouldn't want to do them the disservice of ruling it out utterly). But to do it with such direct criticism of the Chinese government. Even if it is a veiled reference there can be little doubt about the claims. The only inference I can…

I agree. It's practically a declaration of war. And someone on their PR team deserves some kudos for writing a release that makes some damning accusations very clear without ever stating them explicitly.

Re: A new approach to China

#342

Post by lhuang »

Retric wrote: post #213
jhancock wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not defending the China gov for these actions (and many not listed above). When criticizing these actions, it helps to understand the tremendous strains within China. China has changed more in the last 10 years than possibly any other country in the history of the world. These changes are accompanied by massive externalities. There are some serious powder kegs of anger and resentment, Xinjiang being a prime examp…

The size of China magnifies the significance of their changes, but there has been little real change over the last 10 years. Their economic growth pails in comparison to what South Korea or Japan went though over a similar time period. The government actively limits economic growth and has been using the limited economic growth to help quell political unease. China is a highly corrupt and protectionist society and th…

huh? No real change over the last 10 years?

As a rule I try to shy away inflammatory criticism, but this was a very poorly researched post.

There has been TREMENDOUS change over the past 10 years! You have to remember that until Deng's reforms in the late 80s, China was a completely closed society that was just beginning to heal from decades of strife and instability (almost 100 years!), including the cultural revolution which literally turned society upside down and placed a freeze on societal progress.

Since the early 90s China has made leaps and bounds in regards to reform and progress. YES they are still MANY problems, but the changes have been very substantial. China will surpass Japan this year as the 2nd largest economy in the world. Outside of the US and Russia, it holds the third largest stockpile of nuclear arms. The accolades are many...

That said, its unfair to really compare China with South Korea/Japan, who've not only had a huge lead time, but also don't have 1.3 billion people to feed, provide jobs for, and yes control.

All of this growth and sudden change has caused problems, corruption and protectionist economic policies (not to mention the increasingly dangerous heights of nationalism the CCP is stimulating among the populace, especially the youth). To say however that Chinese society is corrupt and have been "meddling in business for thousands of years" is absurd and frankly a bit fox-news in rhetoric.

One of the things I love most about HN is that the community here is in general "smarter" than more general-interest social news communities. That said, I wish people would take a more balanced view on China. Yes there are problems and the CCP is no benevolent big brother but as the poster above me has pointed out the issues are not black and white. There are many many many nuances in uplifting a nation of 1.3 billion people into modernity. I'm not convinced that an open, free-market system is the best solution. Perhaps down the road, but not now.

Re: A new approach to China

#343

Post by lhuang »

riobard wrote: post #157
jhancock wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not defending the China gov for these actions (and many not listed above). When criticizing these actions, it helps to understand the tremendous strains within China. China has changed more in the last 10 years than possibly any other country in the history of the world. These changes are accompanied by massive externalities. There are some serious powder kegs of anger and resentment, Xinjiang being a prime examp…

Controlling will buy you some time before you can really fix problems. However I failed to see much possibility the current government will ever be able to fix those "stability" issues. The pressure and tension just accumulate until one day it breaks. Then you see either 1989 once again, or you see revolution. I'm expecting it to happen within the next two decades.

Who do you think will lead this revolution?

Students at the elite schools in China care about getting jobs with foreign multinationals, not democratic reform...

Re: A new approach to China

#344

Post by lhuang »

est wrote: post #269
jhancock wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not defending the China gov for these actions (and many not listed above). When criticizing these actions, it helps to understand the tremendous strains within China. China has changed more in the last 10 years than possibly any other country in the history of the world. These changes are accompanied by massive externalities. There are some serious powder kegs of anger and resentment, Xinjiang being a prime examp…

> the tremendous strains within China Who created these strains and who should be responsible for this?

1.3 billion people. All strains in China derive from that parent strain.

Not sure you can really pin that blame on the CCP although certainly Mao's lets-all-have-babies ideas would account for some of it.

Re: A new approach to China

#346

Post by neilk »

boundlessdreamz wrote: post #219
boundlessdreamz wrote: post #6

This is incredible. This is the first time, I have seen a LARGE company * Putting its users above profits * Stand up to Chinese Government. Since accounts of human rights activists were targeted, this operation was clearly done at the behest of Chinese Government. I'm disgusted by the levels to which the Chinese Government can stoop. It is time the world stands up to China. If a corporation, whose main aim is to gene…

According to GiagOm "if the Chinese government bans the search giant, then Google could be walking away from about $600 million in 2010 revenues." http://gigaom.com/2010/01/12/how-much-will-it-cost-google-to...

It doesn't matter what the current revenues are, or even the profits. The point is to be part of the fastest growing market in the world, and to be an option when many new consumers are choosing online services.

If Google is deciding that they don't want in on this, it's not about giving up millions today; it's about forgoing billions from the next decade.

Re: A new approach to China

#347

Post by karam »

itistoday wrote: post #141
siculars wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am so proud of Google right now. It's hard to contain. It is high time somoene stood up to China and let them know enough is enough. I sincerely hope other corporations follow suit. As I mentioned elsewhere, I am sure there is more to the story than is being let on now. I could only imagine the level of corporate espionage that is in play between China and Google. Good for Google calling them on it and making a bro…

> I am so proud of Google right now. I am too, but I think we should remember that China's citizens were and still are being censored, killed, and tortured on a daily basis. Google was fine doing business with them and even assisting in their censorship. Only until Google found itself on the receiving end of China's baton did it finally decide to change their relationship. They deserve kudos and a pat on the back for…

I love that they made this announcement via a press release on their blog and not an 'exclusive interview' with a specific news outlet.

Re: A new approach to China

#348

Post by roundsquare »

madmanslitany wrote: post #209

If these allegations are true, and really, I don't expect anyone to be better than Google at tracking who's doing what on the internet, then this is the right choice. It's refreshing to see a corporation back up its beliefs like this and the authorities in the mainland have seriously crossed the line. But I feel compelled to point out that it's unfortunate that it's come to this. I don't agree at all with posters say…

Its a fair point, but there is something to be said for looking at what the PRC wants. In particular, they want/need western business. If google can show the Chinese government that their practices will prevent western business, then the confrontation can be useful.

Its not to say that a direct confrontation is the right move, but there is a balance point between direct accusation and giving the PRC a face saving way to make a small change.

The real question (in my mind) is: is google at the right balance point.

Re: A new approach to China

#349

Post by poutine »

Google probably has been wanting out of China for some time. Like many companies it had felt pressure to be in the 'largest market of the world'. The problem is that it really isn't equipped to compete with the likes of Baidu even if the playing field was level, which it isn't. As a poster upthread noted the Chinese Internet is entertainment dominated and not information/search dominated like in the USA. Just look at Baidu and you'll see videos, music, shopping and celebrity news where Baidu makes much of their revenue. Google doesn't have this content and more importantly Google is bound by western business ethics that prohibit the violation of copyright that the Chinese content companies engage in.

Secondly, the deck is stacked. There are no real opportunities to sell to the wider Chinese Internet audience for foreign companies. The Chinese government considers information distribution and the Internet key to its rather tenuous hold on 1.5 billion people. It will not let any foreign company participate in a significant way in this area. Period. On top of this is a system of corruption that foreign companies can't possible engage in. Google indeed realizes this, that even if they could compete the rule of law doesn't protect them and their business will be given to their competitors. One needs only look at the Youtube experience in China and the rise of Tudou as a result.

Thirdly, even if Google was able to compete and the rule of law applied the market opportunity really isn't that big. Of course you may sputter about this seemingly absurd statement given your week in China, however the facts don't add up. Baidu is projecting about some $800M of revenue in 2010, assuming you trust that figure (you shouldn't trust any number coming out of China). It seems around half of Baidu's revenue is from search where Google could participate. Google has 17% of the Chinese search market in the latest figures I could see (significantly down, they're losing due to the first two points I've made above). Doing the math this equates to some potential $73M in revenue for 2010. Probably equivalent to what they get from Northern Ireland.

There is no upside for Google in China.

Adding to that depressing bottom line is the fact of the continuous attacks on the infrastructure, the probable infiltration of Google by Chinese spies (see Wikileaks for more), the demands by the Chinese government for access to Google's logs and the beating that Google's reputation is taking in its important markets it's pretty obvious that the Google exec is fed up. Leave China to the Chinese and return when there's rule of law is their likely strategy.

My background is as an Internet entrepreneur that worked on a startup in Beijing for the past couple of years, having recently returned to Canada after falling prey to many of these issues, though at a much smaller scale than Google of course.

Re: A new approach to China

#350

Post by weezer »

ajju wrote: post #312
Torn wrote: post #304

People are bringing flowers to the Google building: http://imgur.com/5xJmy.jpg http://img.gd/Dbn/full

Others (on reddit) are interpreting this as flowers on Google's gravestone. A CNN reporter from China tweeted this image and translated the text as "Real Man" http://chinadigitaltimes.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/imag...

It means "Google: a real, [upstanding -- implied], man"
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