Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use • Hacker News Board

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#131

Post by corin_ » Wed, Nov 04, 2015, 11:27 AM UTC

rwmj wrote: post #126

gotchange wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which means a very profitable tax free market That's totally untrue. Drug lords still have to contend with law enforcement raids and busts or bribing govt officials for their goods and products to "reach the consumer" constituting in effect a tax on their operations.

That's only a tax in the very narrow sense that it keeps prison officers and policemen in jobs. I want the money to go towards general taxation. In Britain some £6bn is spent on cannabis each year. Taking a third of that in tax raises enough to reverse half of the chancellor's very controversial recent cuts to tax credits.

Where does the £6b number come from? It seems very high to me.

A 2014 survey has the following numbers: 31% have ever used illegal drugs, 21% still take illegal drugs "even if only occasionally". 93% of people who have tried illegal drugs have tried weed. [1]

Let's say the UK population is 65 million, that makes 13.65m "occasional or more often" illegal drug users, and if we assume that all of the 93% of those who have tried weed still smoke weed, that's 12,694,500 weed smokers. So with that number, to hit a total spend of £6B they would be spending an average of £472 each, or £9/week - I guess that's about 0.5-1g/week. I could believe that amount as an average among "weed smokers", but given the number includes people who say they do it "only occasionally", I suspect the long-tail means that £6b is unrealistically high.

That said, if you have a source for that I'd be interested to see more info.

[1] http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/oct/05/-sp-drug-use-...

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#132

Post by lucideer » Wed, Nov 04, 2015, 11:40 AM UTC

anonymousDan wrote: post #62

lucideer wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd really love if this were the case, but sadly it really isn't. The affect of US tech companies coming here has largely been a small-scale version of Palo Alto-esque gentrification of a small area of Dublin (docklands) and any improvements in standard of living being limited to a small white male tech elite. Overall poverty is up (we're dealing with a very serious recent homelessness crisis) and average standards o…

Intel aren't in Dublin either (Leixlip + Limerick)

Leixlip's pretty much Dublin.

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#133

Post by corin_ » Wed, Nov 04, 2015, 11:48 AM UTC

blumkvist wrote: post #121

bcook wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You focused on the least important part of what I wrote then resort to ad hominem attacks. There is no sensible conversation to be had here.

I don't want to have a conversation with you. You don't know the first thing about the subject. Why would I want to talk to you about it?

I don't disagree with you that he's wrong, but arguing without proper arguments then insulting him doesn't really help the conversation.

@bcook:

Heroin, if it was 100% pure (e.g. as manufactured by a pharmacuticals company), and used with completely safe equipment (e.g. sterylised needles), and used at not-too-high dose levels, it would actually be pretty safe. It essentially has the same effect as morphine or oxycodone, both of which are prescribed legally (my dad has been on morphine for a few years, extended release so he doesn't get high.. but it also doesn't kill him).

The biggest danger is indeed purity - if you think that "x" amount is the right dose for your tolerance (and tolerance not only varies based on how much a user has had before, but also on that person's body in the first place) but one batch you buy is y% pure and the next batch is 2y% pure, you can accidentally dose yourself twice as much as you are expecting and overdose.

Of course overdose is possible with drugs where you completely know the strength - such as oxycontin pills - but with semi-sensible use it's a lot harder, since you actually know how much of the drug you're taking.

Yes it can be addictive, but if you never over do it and can afford to keep buying clean drugs like oxycontin you're most likely going to be fine. The biggest risk with prescription painkillers like this is not that they'll kill you, but that you'll become addicted to them and, when you either can't get another prescription or can't afford your illegal purchases, you move onto heroin because it's much cheaper per dose. Cheaper per dose, but also less pure and therefore more likely to be dangerous.

I personally wouldn't try heroin because I don't want to become dependant on something (other than tobacco..), but if it was completely pure then addition would be the only thing that scared me away from it, not fear of death from using it.

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#134

Post by frenchie091 » Wed, Nov 04, 2015, 12:22 PM UTC

This headline is plain wrong. Ireland isn't about to do this. The news is that our drugs minister is talking about it in the media, and talking about the need for the next government to talk about it. A conversation has started, that's all.

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#135

Post by dbspin » Wed, Nov 04, 2015, 12:53 PM UTC

lucideer wrote: post #53

dbspin wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Describing the Dublin tech community as 'a small white male tech elite' is bizarre. Given the still tiny number of non-white people in Ireland, and the relative number in the tech industry, outside of the teaching hospitals the tech industry is probably the most ethnically diverse in the country. There's certainly a gender disparity, but given the relative ease of getting into tech (via Springboard and similar), this…

I live in Dublin and work in the tech industry here, so I'm not importing any narratives from anywhere else. The tiny number of non-white people in Ireland is ~9% of the population, not too much lower than the UK. There's also been a reasonable female uptake of STEM at third-level in recent years, in part due to deliberate initiatives to promote it. I get the anecdotal impression this may have translated into reducin…

Ok, accepting first generation immigrants from developing nations, whats the level of 3rd level educated non white people living in Ireland? I'd bet it compares unfavourably with the number of non-white people working in tech here, given the massive number of non-Irish tech workers.

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#136

Post by rwmj » Wed, Nov 04, 2015, 12:59 PM UTC

corin_ wrote: post #131

rwmj wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's only a tax in the very narrow sense that it keeps prison officers and policemen in jobs. I want the money to go towards general taxation. In Britain some £6bn is spent on cannabis each year. Taking a third of that in tax raises enough to reverse half of the chancellor's very controversial recent cuts to tax credits.

Where does the £6b number come from? It seems very high to me. A 2014 survey has the following numbers: 31% have ever used illegal drugs, 21% still take illegal drugs "even if only occasionally". 93% of people who have tried illegal drugs have tried weed. [1] Let's say the UK population is 65 million, that makes 13.65m "occasional or more often" illegal drug users, and if we assume that all of the 93% of those who ha…

I tracked this down eventually (took a while, sorry!) The number comes from a Home Office report:

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110220105210/rds...

However that's up to 6.6 billion for the whole illegal drugs market (not just cannabis). So the figure for cannabis would be much lower (see also that report).

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#137

Post by gotchange » Wed, Nov 04, 2015, 1:41 PM UTC

rwmj wrote: post #126

gotchange wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which means a very profitable tax free market That's totally untrue. Drug lords still have to contend with law enforcement raids and busts or bribing govt officials for their goods and products to "reach the consumer" constituting in effect a tax on their operations.

That's only a tax in the very narrow sense that it keeps prison officers and policemen in jobs. I want the money to go towards general taxation. In Britain some £6bn is spent on cannabis each year. Taking a third of that in tax raises enough to reverse half of the chancellor's very controversial recent cuts to tax credits.

Why would you need more tax revenues from this economic activity? To fund addiction treatment programs?

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#138

Post by corin_ » Wed, Nov 04, 2015, 2:35 PM UTC

rwmj wrote: post #136

corin_ wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where does the £6b number come from? It seems very high to me. A 2014 survey has the following numbers: 31% have ever used illegal drugs, 21% still take illegal drugs "even if only occasionally". 93% of people who have tried illegal drugs have tried weed. [1] Let's say the UK population is 65 million, that makes 13.65m "occasional or more often" illegal drug users, and if we assume that all of the 93% of those who ha…

I tracked this down eventually (took a while, sorry!) The number comes from a Home Office report: http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110220105210/rds... However that's up to 6.6 billion for the whole illegal drugs market (not just cannabis). So the figure for cannabis would be much lower (see also that report).

Thanks - and OK, for all drugs makes a lot more sense to me.

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#139

Post by lucideer » Wed, Nov 04, 2015, 2:47 PM UTC

dbspin wrote: post #135

lucideer wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Dublin and work in the tech industry here, so I'm not importing any narratives from anywhere else. The tiny number of non-white people in Ireland is ~9% of the population, not too much lower than the UK. There's also been a reasonable female uptake of STEM at third-level in recent years, in part due to deliberate initiatives to promote it. I get the anecdotal impression this may have translated into reducin…

Ok, accepting first generation immigrants from developing nations, whats the level of 3rd level educated non white people living in Ireland? I'd bet it compares unfavourably with the number of non-white people working in tech here, given the massive number of non-Irish tech workers.

Yeah, you are right there. The sufficiently-educated-plus-visa-holding population is probably going to be a bit less diverse than the wider general population alright.

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#140

Post by throwaway7767 » Wed, Nov 04, 2015, 3:00 PM UTC

bcook wrote: post #99

ryanlol wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not heroin, but a completely unknown substance presented as heroin that probably consists of around 30% heroin.

Heroin addiction is one of the most harmful documented drug-addictions. The need for heroin, physically and psychologically, is the driving force behind the social and personal damage attributed to heroin. People do not get addicted to non-narcotic adulterants and become prostitutes. A cutting agent like caffeine or sugar is probably the safest ingredient...

> People do not get addicted to non-narcotic adulterants and become prostitutes. A cutting agent like caffeine or sugar is probably the safest ingredient...

The biggest physical danger of heroin use is the risk of overdose. The main reason people overdose is because of the adulterants - they don't know how potent the stuff is. x mg of batch A might be a good high, whereash x mg of batch B will kill you from an overdose.

Even if the adulterants are themselves safe, the presence of them is a risk to the users, because they make it impossible to determine dosage.