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Why I pulled my son out of a school for 'gifted' kids

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Re: Why I pulled my son out of a school for 'gifted' kids

#61
post #15
post #3

Couldn't cut it, dropped out, parents wrote sour-grapes article, the system works.

Summary that misses the whole point of the article, meant to make author feel superior.

The situation is one that you would expect to lead to sour grapes. The criticism of the school is rather nebulous. Can we at least say that sour grapes does appear to be a strong factor?

Re: Why I pulled my son out of a school for 'gifted' kids

#62
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If primary education isn't child rearing, nothing is. Schools are absolutely there to raise the child. By that logic, what exactly is the parents job then?

> By that logic, what exactly is the parents job then? Why must only one person have a duty to raise a child? For most of human history "it takes a village" was canon with regard to child rearing. On most days of the week, a school is often responsible for the welfare of a child for more hours of the day than the parent. Seven or eight hours of school, several hours of after school activities. How can you not see thi…

My wife is a primary school teacher, and she barely has time to get through the mandated material. There is no time for "parenting" tasks, beyond basic safety and welfare. And even if she did, the child's family's values are often not in alignment with my wife's. More than once, simple discipline tools have been challenged by parent to effectively remove any consequences for ill-behavior by the student.

So while you may view the role of school as an extension of parenting, many parents regularly stick their noses into the school environment to dictate their own norms, and you cannot have one teacher "parenting" 30 different ways.

Re: Why I pulled my son out of a school for 'gifted' kids

#63
post #25

You tell a kid they're smart: You've immediately set them up for long term failure. "Smart" is a quantifiable hard limit. The problem with smart people is that as soon as they run up against a challenge/concept/issue they cannot immediately overcome, they get frustrated, because they "should be smarter than this!" Which often results in avoidable frustration/anxiety/depression. You see this a lot. "Gifted" "smart" ki…

>You tell a kid they're smart: You've immediately set them up for long term failure. this is why you put the kid into a school with other "smart" kids so the kid gets the chance to experience that s/he isn't the smartest one, that there are much more smart kids out there. Speaking from personal experience - without much special effort 8th grade city's first place in physics, mathematics and chemistry, regional second…

I went from a public kindergarten-8th grade school where I was in a gifted program–a few hours a week of special classes, but mostly in normal classes which I found quite easy–to an old-school, elite private high school with tons of smart and very competitive kids from around the world.

Like the author's kid, I was put off by the competitiveness of my fellow students and sometimes afraid of trying at all when faced with the idea of failing publicly. It was stressful at times, and I definitely didn't do as well as I could have because of it (though I still enjoyed high school overall).

Now that I look back on it, however, I think that my experience in high school was formative. Being among all of those high achieving, highly motivated people raised my subconscious bar for success, and while I didn't outright fail, I grew quite a lot by having my limits pushed and persevering through some near failures along the way.

Re: Why I pulled my son out of a school for 'gifted' kids

#64
Gifted people always end up turning out average. Because they aren't special. Nearly every school catering to the middle class and up has a 'gifted' program. How many kids is that? Millions per grade. Everyone who passes through that filter gets to think of themselves as a 'smart person'. In a given K-12 grade, there are 60000 students in the 99th percentile (whatever that means) per criterion.

But that's not enough - parents want to make sure their kid is special. The kind that wins Nobel Prizes. We have to find some way to filter these million above-average kids into a few hundred people who truly make a difference. So maybe your next filter could be some competition. Being accepted to [0] means you are in the top 1500 at doing a hobby science project. We have a long series of K-12 filters (olympiads, languages, music, early university, chess, etc.) and each one ends up with its own few (100-10000) best.

We want to set up our kid for success, but the only way we can have any sort of prediction is by putting the kid through filter after filter after filter and hoping they pass all of them. And if they pass the first three and not the fourth? Then now you have to deal with the fact that our prediction says that they will spend the rest of their life with a regular family and a regular job rather than being something spectacular. And if they pass every test they meet? Well there are 50 other people who matched the same set of tests as they did. How do we select which 49 will end up being normal adults? And what if the next Linus Torvalds ends up being someone who passed some of the filters, but not all of them?

There is no predictor for success. Kids should be encouraged to try and prove themselves, but only so long as they enjoy it so much they continue to choose to pursue this during their own free time.

[0] https://student.societyforscience.org/intel-isef

Re: Why I pulled my son out of a school for 'gifted' kids

#65
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The schools are not their to raise the child, that is the parents' job. If primary education isn't child rearing, nothing is. Schools are absolutely there to raise the child.

">The schools are not their to raise the child, that is the parents' job. If primary education isn't child rearing, nothing is. Schools are absolutely there to raise the child." The schools are not their to raise the child, that is the parents' job.

Then why do they have children spend 6+ hours a day there every day for 3/4s a year? Taxpayer funded babysitting?

School is there to raise children, but they do play a lesser role compared to parents and cannot make up for absent parents. It is really to outsource the parts of child rearing that we can both scale up and have a general consensus on. (And to some extent, it does sometimes seem to be about babysitting.)

Re: Why I pulled my son out of a school for 'gifted' kids

#66

> I will never forget the day I mentioned to another mother my concern about lack of empathy and kindness among the students, and she told me: “That’s not the school’s job.” Is there nothing left that parents are meant to teach? Or is it all now the school's job? If so, why don't we go full Spartan and take the kids away from the parents right after they're born and have schools teach everything.

Or for core social ideals, which I would hope basic empathy and kindness are considered, we should teach both at school and at home.

Re: Why I pulled my son out of a school for 'gifted' kids

#67
post #61
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Summary that misses the whole point of the article, meant to make author feel superior.

The situation is one that you would expect to lead to sour grapes. The criticism of the school is rather nebulous. Can we at least say that sour grapes does appear to be a strong factor?

I think the main criticism leveled at the school is its failing to take into account their kid's needs and emotions -- and while it's based on their own pain points and their kid's failing (which we could call "sour grapes"), the same approach would lea the school to fail any kid in the same situation.

What I took from the article is that instead of those "gifted kids" being given extra care, the children are only given extra curriculum to cover. I'd expect both -- since kids being really bright can be very brittle, antagonistic, alienated etc, and a special school should be expected to take that into account to and help alleviate it.

So, while I could subscribe to "sour grapes", my main issue with labeling it as that is that I don't agree with the moral accusation it tags along with it. As in: I think they are justified to feel "sour grapes".

Re: Why I pulled my son out of a school for 'gifted' kids

#68

Honestly, this sounds like a terribly selfish move. The OP consciously took her son out of a bigger pond to put him into a smaller pool where he could shine again. This completely ignores the fact that probably the best way to learn is to be surrounded by people more intelligent than yourself. Speaking as someone who spent most of my childhood as "valedictorian" I would have craved a competitive peer group much soone…

> This completely ignores the fact that probably the best way to learn is to be surrounded by people more intelligent than yourself.

It might feel great interacting with your intellectual peers, but being among your actual peers will train in you in the kind of interactions which will form the majority of your life.

Re: Why I pulled my son out of a school for 'gifted' kids

#69
"As it turns out, gifted kids, defined as "high potential learners," can have heightened awareness and anxiety, according to the National Association for Gifted Children. Our son fit the bill. (He has worried about the meaning of life since he was two years old. Seriously."

I was far from a gifted child. My first day of kindergarten, my mom dressed me up in a like a minature businessman, equipped with a small brief case, thermos, lunch box, and a rain coat. (Mom, I love you to pieces, and look back with loving memories. Sorry guys had to say this.)

Back to kindergarten. I walked into that class room, looked at Miss Palmer. Looked at the other children running around, and made a beehive to the little wooden play house on the back of the room. I looked out of 6" X 6" window, and my body tensed up, and I didn't want to leave that playhouse. I opened my lunch case and started to drink my milk. My mother loving put ice cubes in an cleaned, recycled peanut butter jar. I drank my milk, and came out of that playhouse, with the iron fist of Miss Palmer. "Get out of there, or I'll pull you out by your arm!"

I went to my seat, and hated the whole thing. I enjoyed the other kids, but the adults at that school terrified me. I'm still leary of adults, and I'm an adult. Crazy?

I remember being a nervous child. My school just made my anxieties worse.

My biggest fear was twice a month, the children would have to go up to a big wooden calender, and put the date place card in the right spot. When it was my turn, I knew the date, but when I was up on that counter, and everyone was looking at me--I froze, and couldn't remember anything. I would take that placard and move it around the board, like it was a Ouigi board. Even the kids would take pity on me. They would yell, "To the right. Over there. Down. Up.". After thirty one tries, I would finally complete the task. In order to help me, Miss Palmer decided I would put the date up 2-3 times a week--so I would get better. Well, I never got better.

I was so terrified of public speaking, or anyone watching me do anything, I literally would ask my college professors, "Do you require any public speaking in your class?". I got through college with only one sweaty, public speach. It's possible, with a lot of planning.

As a child, I had a hard time learning. I can still see the concern on my father's face when he was trying to teach me the numbers on the big black rotary phone. I had some kind of learning disability? I just couldn't learn the things the adults wanted me to learn. I just wanted to be outside playing, and running around.

Even-though, I was not gifted, I do remember the worst day of my life. I was five, or six? My parents were out, and I was alone in the house. (Just for a little while. I could go to Donna's house if I needed anything.). I was jumping on my parents bed. I got tired. I layed down. At that moment, I realized my parents might die one day. I cried, and cried. I cried for hours, or at least it seemed like hours. That was the beginning of my fear of death. It went from my parents, to my own eventually demise.

My parents arrived, and I never took them for granted again. I hugged them more. I grew up fearing for their safety. In Boy Scouts, I didn't want them to go to the Jamboree; afraid they might get hurt. After all, these log contraptions were put together by crazy adults, and stupid kids.

Back to my learning disability. I finally overcame it in second grade. I just started to learn? I did really well up until high school. With every pore on my face, and back clogged; the only thing I really cared about was girls, sports, (actually nothing formal. Just knock down basketball games), and socializing. It wasen't until my last year I got serious about school, but it was too late. I did make up eveverything I missed in high school in two semesters at a community college, and went on to get a four year degree, and a year of graduate school.

So if you have a kid who's doing terrible in school, things do get better. If you have a nervous, anxious kid, especially if that kid is the first born; I was just about to give advise, but realized there's no advice. You don't want to coddle them? You don't want to fix all their anxieties? In my case, I just got better.

I became a high functioning, educated adult. I felt like I could do anything, and was pretty successful.

I then had a nervous breakdown over--life? I really don't know what made me bust a gasket. I got better from the breakdown, but I'm not a good as before. I am still hanging on though, and not depressed. I just need to make more money. The breakdown had no affect on my learning abilities, or interests. I'm just not the same dude. I sometimes wonder if I would want to go back to my old self. I honestly don't know.

Good luck with your kids, and hug them. Hug, or call your parents. I need to get in touch with my brother, and sister, but we had a huge falling out over a family matter. Yes, it was money, and it was ugly. I just can't forgive them yet.

(Brother--if you are listening--I understand what you did. You needed the money, and you had a kid on the way. I kinda get what you did. As to my sister--you alwready had a multi million dollar shoe business. Two houses. Vacation home in the desert, with a yurt in the backyard. New cars. Health insurance. Good wine. Restaurant meals. I will never understand why you took all the money. I have thought about it over the years, and I just don't get it. You know your mother needed the money? I'm still helping out mom because she can't afford anything. And, you knew I needed the money? You took that expensive sports car, and let your oldest boy drive it around town, like it was a commuter car? I kills me on so many levels, and it will be stolen. Yea, dad was an angry man, but you didn't need to capitalize on a bad situation? Maybe, one day, I can forgive?"

Sorry people--this went to therapy too quick. I know this is not the place. Won't do it again.

Re: Why I pulled my son out of a school for 'gifted' kids

#70

Honestly, this sounds like a terribly selfish move. The OP consciously took her son out of a bigger pond to put him into a smaller pool where he could shine again. This completely ignores the fact that probably the best way to learn is to be surrounded by people more intelligent than yourself. Speaking as someone who spent most of my childhood as "valedictorian" I would have craved a competitive peer group much soone…

> This completely ignores the fact that probably the best way to learn is to be surrounded by people more intelligent than yourself.

Isn't the best way to teach other people? You soon find out what you don't know when you teach other people and they ask you questions.

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