Why I pulled my son out of a school for 'gifted' kids • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I pulled my son out of a school for 'gifted' kids

#41

Post by Retra » Tue, Nov 03, 2015, 8:32 PM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #11

You tell a kid they're smart: You've immediately set them up for long term failure. "Smart" is a quantifiable hard limit. The problem with smart people is that as soon as they run up against a challenge/concept/issue they cannot immediately overcome, they get frustrated, because they "should be smarter than this!" Which often results in avoidable frustration/anxiety/depression. You see this a lot. "Gifted" "smart" ki…

I was told I was gifted at a very young age, and people expected a lot out of me. But by the time I hit 9 years old, I had already convinced myself that school was too easy -- I didn't value my grades at all. I would fail regularly and say "I don't care about a mark on a paper." I barely graduated high school.

But the problem here wasn't that I thought I was gifted, it was that I didn't compare myself to my peers at all. Getting an A was easy, so it meant nothing to me. The other students who did well were not people I aspired to be like. I spent all my time working on things I enjoyed for myself, and those challenged me to work independently. I failed Algebra because I spent the whole semester reading a statistics book. I failed an English class because I spent the whole time programming on my calculator. (I had run out of classes to fail, and had to take classes at college to make up the credits.) But once I started studying physics, math, and computers, I've been happily over-performing ever since.

I remember moments where I turned away from challenges, but I always turned toward something that mattered more to me. And there are challenges there, too. You will be challenged no matter what you choose to do, so long as you aren't doing only what has already been done.

So I can't say I'd agree with you. People are often just awful at measuring success.

Re: Why I pulled my son out of a school for 'gifted' kids

#42

Post by sdegutis » Tue, Nov 03, 2015, 8:32 PM UTC

trhway wrote: post #25

Someone1234 wrote: post #11

You tell a kid they're smart: You've immediately set them up for long term failure. "Smart" is a quantifiable hard limit. The problem with smart people is that as soon as they run up against a challenge/concept/issue they cannot immediately overcome, they get frustrated, because they "should be smarter than this!" Which often results in avoidable frustration/anxiety/depression. You see this a lot. "Gifted" "smart" ki…

>You tell a kid they're smart: You've immediately set them up for long term failure. this is why you put the kid into a school with other "smart" kids so the kid gets the chance to experience that s/he isn't the smartest one, that there are much more smart kids out there. Speaking from personal experience - without much special effort 8th grade city's first place in physics, mathematics and chemistry, regional second…

> this is why you put the kid into a school with other "smart" kids so the kid gets the chance to experience that s/he isn't the smartest one, that there are much more smart kids out there.

Or you could homeschool them.

We don't say one way or another how "well" our kids are doing, or how "smart" they are. We just teach them. When they learn one thing, we teach them the next. There's no "scores", there's no comparing them with other kids. There's just learning. If they need more time or practice to learn something, we give them more time or practice.

The goal of education is to get them to know as much as we know and then some. (And there's the learning social skills aspect. But we take care of that in a different way.) It's not a competition. We're all in this together.

And yes, some people will be better at some things, and worse at others. That shouldn't affect self-esteem. If everyone was good at the same things, the world wouldn't be able to function. And nobody's good at everything.

Re: Why I pulled my son out of a school for 'gifted' kids

#43

Post by setpatchaddress » Tue, Nov 03, 2015, 8:32 PM UTC

cuckcuckspruce wrote: post #2

> I will never forget the day I mentioned to another mother my concern about lack of empathy and kindness among the students, and she told me: “That’s not the school’s job.” Is there nothing left that parents are meant to teach? Or is it all now the school's job? If so, why don't we go full Spartan and take the kids away from the parents right after they're born and have schools teach everything.

You have a group of 19-36 students at home, and the skills to teach positive group dynamics? Lucky you.

"That's not the school's job" -- so no one does it. Empathy is a learned skill, and like all such skills, requires practice.

Re: Why I pulled my son out of a school for 'gifted' kids

#44

Post by volaski » Tue, Nov 03, 2015, 8:32 PM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #11

You tell a kid they're smart: You've immediately set them up for long term failure. "Smart" is a quantifiable hard limit. The problem with smart people is that as soon as they run up against a challenge/concept/issue they cannot immediately overcome, they get frustrated, because they "should be smarter than this!" Which often results in avoidable frustration/anxiety/depression. You see this a lot. "Gifted" "smart" ki…

There's a big difference between calling your child "Smart" and calling "Gifted". Sounds like wordplay but it's really not. I agree with your main point that "gifted" children end up failing way more than just ordinary smart children. But I've also seen a lot of children who grew up a confident person because their parents praised them a lot. They just shouldn't call them "gifted" because it implies that the kid already "has" the gift, whereas being "smart" just means greater potential.

Re: Why I pulled my son out of a school for 'gifted' kids

#45

Post by daxfohl » Tue, Nov 03, 2015, 8:33 PM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #11

You tell a kid they're smart: You've immediately set them up for long term failure. "Smart" is a quantifiable hard limit. The problem with smart people is that as soon as they run up against a challenge/concept/issue they cannot immediately overcome, they get frustrated, because they "should be smarter than this!" Which often results in avoidable frustration/anxiety/depression. You see this a lot. "Gifted" "smart" ki…

A kid is essentially as smart as a kid is. You can't push them to be smarter. You can push them to be better trained. You can push them to be more interested in academics. You can push them in many directions and as a parent you have to decide what's important.

But you can't push them to be smarter. If that's the goal then something bad is going to come out of it. Recognizing this as fairly obvious would be a good first step.

Re: Why I pulled my son out of a school for 'gifted' kids

#46

Post by panglott » Tue, Nov 03, 2015, 8:35 PM UTC

morgante wrote: post #39

Honestly, this sounds like a terribly selfish move. The OP consciously took her son out of a bigger pond to put him into a smaller pool where he could shine again. This completely ignores the fact that probably the best way to learn is to be surrounded by people more intelligent than yourself. Speaking as someone who spent most of my childhood as "valedictorian" I would have craved a competitive peer group much soone…

Moving their child to an environment where they develop a healthy, positive attitude toward learning and outgrow a crippingly low self-esteem is "terribly selfish"?

Re: Why I pulled my son out of a school for 'gifted' kids

#47

Post by ryanhuff » Tue, Nov 03, 2015, 8:35 PM UTC

astazangasta wrote: post #18

powertower wrote: post #14

There is something very narcissistic about all that. Basically, among gifted students, their child's position was in the middle of the bell-curve. That is a natural thing when there are smarter kids around, that are a better scoring group then your previous one. The parents then go on to blame society and the school for not dedicating significantly more resources towards their child, at the expense of the other stude…

>The schools are not their to raise the child, that is the parents' job. If primary education isn't child rearing, nothing is. Schools are absolutely there to raise the child.

A large part of the value to primary school is socialization with a peer group.

Re: Why I pulled my son out of a school for 'gifted' kids

#48

Post by aidenn0 » Tue, Nov 03, 2015, 8:36 PM UTC

Retra wrote: post #41

Someone1234 wrote: post #11

You tell a kid they're smart: You've immediately set them up for long term failure. "Smart" is a quantifiable hard limit. The problem with smart people is that as soon as they run up against a challenge/concept/issue they cannot immediately overcome, they get frustrated, because they "should be smarter than this!" Which often results in avoidable frustration/anxiety/depression. You see this a lot. "Gifted" "smart" ki…

I was told I was gifted at a very young age, and people expected a lot out of me. But by the time I hit 9 years old, I had already convinced myself that school was too easy -- I didn't value my grades at all. I would fail regularly and say "I don't care about a mark on a paper." I barely graduated high school. But the problem here wasn't that I thought I was gifted, it was that I didn't compare myself to my peers at…

You are wrong. There is compelling evidence that emphasizing the importance of intelligence (including praising it) versus emphasizing the importance of hard work, causes children to do worse at a variety of tasks.

Re: Why I pulled my son out of a school for 'gifted' kids

#49

Post by hugh4 » Tue, Nov 03, 2015, 8:37 PM UTC

jimktrains2 wrote: post #26

gmarx wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was kid people told me I was smart. I don't think I experienced any of this.

When I was a kid people told me I was smart. I'm almost 30 and _still_ struggle with _exactly_ what GP posted.

Well there ya go, anecdotes both ways. Shall we just declare it a common potential pitfall then?

Re: Why I pulled my son out of a school for 'gifted' kids

#50

Post by morgante » Tue, Nov 03, 2015, 8:37 PM UTC

panglott wrote: post #46

morgante wrote: post #39

Honestly, this sounds like a terribly selfish move. The OP consciously took her son out of a bigger pond to put him into a smaller pool where he could shine again. This completely ignores the fact that probably the best way to learn is to be surrounded by people more intelligent than yourself. Speaking as someone who spent most of my childhood as "valedictorian" I would have craved a competitive peer group much soone…

Moving their child to an environment where they develop a healthy, positive attitude toward learning and outgrow a crippingly low self-esteem is "terribly selfish"?

> Moving their child to an environment where they develop a healthy, positive attitude toward learning and outgrow a crippingly low self-esteem is "terribly selfish"?

Speaking as someone who spent years in a "normal" environment where I was consistently at the top of the curve, I don't think it's necessarily the healthiest learning position even if it benefits self-esteem. When you never have to try to beat everyone else, you don't develop a lot of essential skills and instead just have a growing ego.