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A new approach to China

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Re: A new approach to China

#181

Post by EricBurnett »

bgurupra wrote: post #154
maxklein wrote: post #4

It's easy to shut down the site when you are losing the search game to local competition. In any case, even though I find freedom of speech to be necessary and encouraged, I do not think that Google is right to imply in this blog post that the Chinese government is behind the attacks.

What were you trying now max?Social Engineering people to downvote you ? :-) JK

We definitely need more granular flags. People shouldn't need to be downvoted for expressing a dissenting opinion, but I agree that in the current HN climate it was inevitable.

Re: A new approach to China

#182

Post by zipburt »

liuliu wrote: post #88
there wrote: post #38

nobody seems to be commenting on the attack part of that post. what was the "highly sophisticated and targeted attack on our corporate infrastructure originating from China that resulted in the theft of intellectual property from Google"? that doesn't sound like just a few end-user gmail accounts being compromised, but something that was much more serious that may have exposed more information than just what these ch…

For some background information: GFW research team tried heavily to crack down the SSL certificate for gmail (thus, they can censor the gmail content through GFW).

sometimes hackers hack for money

Re: A new approach to China

#183

Post by omouse »

michaelneale wrote: post #39
pavs wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It will be interesting to see how the Chinese govt responds. Chinese Gov will be glad if google leaves - they have nothing to loose. Their credibility as an ethical government will be bruised, not that there was any credibility to begin with.

Don't assume that the Chinese Gov. are ignorant of PR dangers, they aren't irrational. It would be complex mixed feelings.

They can spin this easily. Google is showing porn images in their search results or some other bullshit story. They would do that, and it would make their local search engine Baidu look very good in comparison. They could also spin it as Google not being able to stand the competition and "look! Westerns can't help us, they don't know anything about us!"

They aren't ignorant of PR and they know when to apply force and when to hold back.

Re: A new approach to China

#184

Post by andrewfong »

jfischer wrote: post #120
netcan wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending how this unfolds, I would expect a shallow but broad effect on Chinese business. Imagine that all Google properties get banned: Interoperability with foreign businesses becomes a minor issue. Small business-to-small-business gets a little bit of friction (eg, cannot read your spreadsheet). Some classes of (especially outsourcing) Chinese companies cannot compete. They cannot provide ppc or seo services. Chi…

I'm not convinced. Google is talking about shutting down google.cn, not blocking google.com from the Chinese internet. I've used google services from China without any issues. Also, the local market in China is much more Windows-focused than in the U.S. I think Microsoft leaving the Chinese market would have a huge effect. Overall, the question is not whether it has an impact on Chinese business but whether it would…

It's unclear whether Microsoft leaving the OS market would actually affect things -- the majority of Microsoft software in China is pirated, and it's not like Microsoft can flip a kill-switch and take down every Windows machine.

Still, if Bing follows in uncensoring, that be impressive, especially given the kerfuffle Nick Kristof raised a couple of months ago over Bing's filtering.

Re: A new approach to China

#185

Post by andrewfong »

jfischer wrote: post #120
netcan wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending how this unfolds, I would expect a shallow but broad effect on Chinese business. Imagine that all Google properties get banned: Interoperability with foreign businesses becomes a minor issue. Small business-to-small-business gets a little bit of friction (eg, cannot read your spreadsheet). Some classes of (especially outsourcing) Chinese companies cannot compete. They cannot provide ppc or seo services. Chi…

I'm not convinced. Google is talking about shutting down google.cn, not blocking google.com from the Chinese internet. I've used google services from China without any issues. Also, the local market in China is much more Windows-focused than in the U.S. I think Microsoft leaving the Chinese market would have a huge effect. Overall, the question is not whether it has an impact on Chinese business but whether it would…

What I would love to see would be if Microsoft started bundling "dissident-friendly" software features into its products -- e.g. encryption.

Re: A new approach to China

#186

Post by EricBurnett »

cellis wrote: post #51
maxklein wrote: post #4

It's easy to shut down the site when you are losing the search game to local competition. In any case, even though I find freedom of speech to be necessary and encouraged, I do not think that Google is right to imply in this blog post that the Chinese government is behind the attacks.

Why do you defend the Chinese government at every chance you get? Edit: I am talking about this http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1036908 in particular.

If this person believes in the value of the Chinese government, it is their right to defend that opinion, just as it is your right to argue against it. Of course, the fact that they have a dissenting opinion by arguing that China should be allowed to suppress dissenting opinions is certainly ironic (from the linked post).

Re: A new approach to China

#187

Post by liuliu »

siculars wrote: post #36
boundlessdreamz wrote: post #6

This is incredible. This is the first time, I have seen a LARGE company * Putting its users above profits * Stand up to Chinese Government. Since accounts of human rights activists were targeted, this operation was clearly done at the behest of Chinese Government. I'm disgusted by the levels to which the Chinese Government can stoop. It is time the world stands up to China. If a corporation, whose main aim is to gene…

I am so proud of Google right now. It's hard to contain. It is high time somoene stood up to China and let them know enough is enough. I sincerely hope other corporations follow suit. As I mentioned elsewhere, I am sure there is more to the story than is being let on now. I could only imagine the level of corporate espionage that is in play between China and Google. Good for Google calling them on it and making a bro…

And it started. Major news sites in China start to filter out this news which has been heavily reported several hours ago. I expected all Google service will be blocked by the end of today.

Edit: maybe not that soon. A second thought, current news block may be interpreted as a "saving face" for Google. China high officials may have that kind of thought and think it is for Google's own benefits so that they can still discuss with Chinese gov. Otherwise if it is spread, there is no room for discussion.

Re: A new approach to China

#189

Post by dskhatri »

EricBurnett wrote: post #175
dskhatri wrote: post #69

This is a huge development. I was just discussing this with friends by email (we should be using Wave) and realized the move, although incredibly noble, could be even more detrimental economically to Google's growth outside the US. Totalitarian governments (of which there are quite a few) will become weary of Google's power and possibly inhibit the company's growth in those countries. On the other hand, this move wil…

FYI, here and in your other post above ( http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1049046 ), I believe the word you are looking for is 'wary' not 'weary'. But good point nevertheless.

Thanks

Re: A new approach to China

#190

Post by chrischen »

houseabsolute wrote: post #165
chrischen wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be careful there, your commitment is no different from the conviction of a nationalist approving one's government's actions no matter what is done. You being critical of Google is the only thing guaranteed to keep them in check.

The correct time to criticize organizations to keep them in check is when they have done something worthy of criticism. On the other hand, when they have done things worthy of praise, celebrating them is at worst a no op.

Mainly talking about his "lifelong user" statement.

Companies are fluid entities, constantly morphing and changing. Praising the action is where the focus should be, not the company.

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