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A new approach to China

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Re: A new approach to China

#151

Post by jjguy »

DrJokepu wrote: post #132
jjguy wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

10 bucks on 0day.

As I commented elsewhere in this post, gossip is that the attack was launched from _within_ the Chinese offices of Google, not just from the Internet.

oh! That's even more interesting. The security community spins lots of FUD talking about the "insider threat," but there's very little real data to back up the threat.

"Credible data describing the scope and impact of unwelcome insider actions are hard to come by..."

Shari Lawrence Pfleeger, Salvatore J. Stolfo, "Addressing the Insider Threat," IEEE Security and Privacy, vol. 7, no. 6, pp. 10-13, Nov./Dec. 2009, doi:10.1109/MSP.2009.146 http://www.computer.org/portal/web/csdl/doi/10.1109/MSP.2009...

Re: A new approach to China

#153

Post by jordyhoyt »

boundlessdreamz wrote: post #6

This is incredible. This is the first time, I have seen a LARGE company * Putting its users above profits * Stand up to Chinese Government. Since accounts of human rights activists were targeted, this operation was clearly done at the behest of Chinese Government. I'm disgusted by the levels to which the Chinese Government can stoop. It is time the world stands up to China. If a corporation, whose main aim is to gene…

My high school US history teacher said this (during the ramp-up to the Iraq war): "Posturing for war can be very good, actually going to war is NEVER good."

The parallel here, in my mind, is that Google has an opportunity for accomplishing several things while "posturing" for war with the Chinese government:

* Put pressure on the Chinese government to change. This is the public-facing goal of the campaign. The cause.

* Make up for any negative press about privacy by reinforcing the idea that their users' accounts are meant to be completely private and secure.

* Align themselves with human-rights causes, garnering trust amid doubts about trustworthiness and projecting a policy on censorship.

Posturing for war will likely prove very good for Google, and may result in the Chinese government caving. But if they actually have to go to war, it will be painful.

In my mind, it would be ideal for Google to posture for as long as they can, and as loud as they can, and see if they can't get the Chinese government to back down at all. Any significant win, without going to war, could be cause to not go to war, for it could be wrapped up as the government "cooperating".

Never attribute to goodwill, that which can be more adequately explained by good marketing.

Re: A new approach to China

#154

Post by bgurupra »

maxklein wrote: post #4

It's easy to shut down the site when you are losing the search game to local competition. In any case, even though I find freedom of speech to be necessary and encouraged, I do not think that Google is right to imply in this blog post that the Chinese government is behind the attacks.

What were you trying now max?Social Engineering people to downvote you ? :-) JK

Re: A new approach to China

#155

Post by chrischen »

siculars wrote: post #36
boundlessdreamz wrote: post #6

This is incredible. This is the first time, I have seen a LARGE company * Putting its users above profits * Stand up to Chinese Government. Since accounts of human rights activists were targeted, this operation was clearly done at the behest of Chinese Government. I'm disgusted by the levels to which the Chinese Government can stoop. It is time the world stands up to China. If a corporation, whose main aim is to gene…

I am so proud of Google right now. It's hard to contain. It is high time somoene stood up to China and let them know enough is enough. I sincerely hope other corporations follow suit. As I mentioned elsewhere, I am sure there is more to the story than is being let on now. I could only imagine the level of corporate espionage that is in play between China and Google. Good for Google calling them on it and making a bro…

Be careful there, your commitment is no different from the conviction of a nationalist approving one's government's actions no matter what is done.

You being critical of Google is the only thing guaranteed to keep them in check.

Re: A new approach to China

#156

Post by rubinelli »

jfischer wrote: post #120
netcan wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending how this unfolds, I would expect a shallow but broad effect on Chinese business. Imagine that all Google properties get banned: Interoperability with foreign businesses becomes a minor issue. Small business-to-small-business gets a little bit of friction (eg, cannot read your spreadsheet). Some classes of (especially outsourcing) Chinese companies cannot compete. They cannot provide ppc or seo services. Chi…

I'm not convinced. Google is talking about shutting down google.cn, not blocking google.com from the Chinese internet. I've used google services from China without any issues. Also, the local market in China is much more Windows-focused than in the U.S. I think Microsoft leaving the Chinese market would have a huge effect. Overall, the question is not whether it has an impact on Chinese business but whether it would…

Even if Microsoft leaves, consumers will easily find pirate copies.

Re: A new approach to China

#157

Post by riobard »

jhancock wrote: post #118
riobard wrote: post #44

I want to add some background knowledge: - ever since the ending of the Olympics in 2008, Chinese government started a series of large scale "cleaning up" operations all in the name of removing porn from the Internet (while we all know what's the more obvious reason ...). - Many report that as of now Xinjiang Autonomous Region has Internet access to only a few selected official websites after the riot in 2009. - Ther…

I'm not defending the China gov for these actions (and many not listed above). When criticizing these actions, it helps to understand the tremendous strains within China. China has changed more in the last 10 years than possibly any other country in the history of the world. These changes are accompanied by massive externalities. There are some serious powder kegs of anger and resentment, Xinjiang being a prime examp…

Controlling will buy you some time before you can really fix problems. However I failed to see much possibility the current government will ever be able to fix those "stability" issues. The pressure and tension just accumulate until one day it breaks. Then you see either 1989 once again, or you see revolution. I'm expecting it to happen within the next two decades.

Re: A new approach to China

#158

Post by jorgeortiz85 »

DrJokepu wrote: post #130

"Gossip from within google.cn is Shanghai office used as CN gov attack stage in US source code network." - wikileaks: http://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/7689041346

Also:

"gossip inside google China is gov hackers found infiltrating google source code repository; gmail attacks an old issue." - @wikileaks http://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/7688415363

"China has been quietly asking for the same access to google logfiles as US intelligence for 2-3 years now." - @wikileaks http://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/7689072081

"Should be noted that Google keeps secret how many user's records are disclosed to US intelligence, others." - @wikileaks http://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/7689142127

"correction: the time of the Chinese requests/demands are not exactly known and are possibly in the last 12 months." - @wikileaks http://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/7689422772

Re: A new approach to China

#159

Post by joe_the_user »

jordyhoyt wrote: post #153
boundlessdreamz wrote: post #6

This is incredible. This is the first time, I have seen a LARGE company * Putting its users above profits * Stand up to Chinese Government. Since accounts of human rights activists were targeted, this operation was clearly done at the behest of Chinese Government. I'm disgusted by the levels to which the Chinese Government can stoop. It is time the world stands up to China. If a corporation, whose main aim is to gene…

My high school US history teacher said this (during the ramp-up to the Iraq war): "Posturing for war can be very good, actually going to war is NEVER good." The parallel here, in my mind, is that Google has an opportunity for accomplishing several things while "posturing" for war with the Chinese government: * Put pressure on the Chinese government to change. This is the public-facing goal of the campaign. The cause.…

Actually, I think Google very definitely declared war on China by making very public, very damning accusations.

The Chinese government could not possible allow itself to be seen caving into a single corporation and Google now cannot allow itself to be seen going back on "Don't Be Evil".

This is the end for Google and China.

War should be avoided at most costs but not all costs. Right on Google.

Re: A new approach to China

#160

Post by brown9-2 »

ghshephard wrote: post #139

Read the following: "Google said that a primary goal of the attackers was accessing the Gmail accounts of Chinese human right activists, but that the attack also targeted 20 other large companies in the finance, technology, media and chemical sectors." The question I have - is were these companies' infrastructures being run by Google? And, if so, could this reaction be the harbinger of a revelation of an attack on th…

It just sounds as if once they realized they were under attack, they shared some information with other companies in those industries and then these companies discovered they were under the same attack.

Or more likely they shared the info with the US government who helped discover that other companies were under the same attack.

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