A new approach to China • Hacker News Board

Re: A new approach to China

#111

Post by Estragon » Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 1:15 AM UTC

bilbo0s wrote: post #46

Wow! Things just went batshit crazy. Trying to tell financial people to calm down. Google wasn't making any money in China anyway. And there is no reason to think right now that this will affect anyone else. I REALLY hope people can regain their bearing before tomorrow's trading session. Thank you Google for announcing this after market close! To have announced it during trading would have been horrid. EDIT: BTW It i…

  Google wasn't making any money in China anyway.

Yeah, I was thinking as I read this, "You were going to have to cede the market to Baidu, anyway."

Re: A new approach to China

#112

Post by anApple » Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 1:16 AM UTC

Wouldn't every entrepreneur hope google would pull out of his market? :-)

Re: A new approach to China

#113

Post by djcapelis » Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 1:18 AM UTC

siculars wrote: post #36

boundlessdreamz wrote: post #6

This is incredible. This is the first time, I have seen a LARGE company * Putting its users above profits * Stand up to Chinese Government. Since accounts of human rights activists were targeted, this operation was clearly done at the behest of Chinese Government. I'm disgusted by the levels to which the Chinese Government can stoop. It is time the world stands up to China. If a corporation, whose main aim is to gene…

I am so proud of Google right now. It's hard to contain. It is high time somoene stood up to China and let them know enough is enough. I sincerely hope other corporations follow suit. As I mentioned elsewhere, I am sure there is more to the story than is being let on now. I could only imagine the level of corporate espionage that is in play between China and Google. Good for Google calling them on it and making a bro…

> I could only imagine the level of corporate espionage that is in play between China and Google.

I'm not sure these types of interactions can still be described as corporate espionage. The fact that one of these parties is a sovereign nation creates wrinkle to this whole thing. (From what I understand China doesn't directly link themselves too closely with this but no one really thinks this isn't covert stuff being directed by their government.)

Re: A new approach to China

#114

Post by DavidSJ » Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 1:23 AM UTC

A thought: if several other Western-based web service providers (Yahoo? MSN? etc.) all made a similar move in a short period of time, the effects on Chinese policy could be substantial.

Is this an opportunity for a grass roots petition?

Re: A new approach to China

#115

Post by djcapelis » Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 1:24 AM UTC

liuliu wrote: post #84

lallysingh wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which also makes their departure a bigger negotiating point with the Chinese government.

It is not a negotiating, it is a choice that Google already made by not censoring search result. Chinese gov is known for the attitude not negotiating with human right activists.

I checked google.cn and the results still seem to be censored. The blog post says they will stop the censorship, not that they already have. I think they're leaving the door open for the government to save some face here and approve it if it wants.

That said, they did not leave a whole lot of room for China to save face and that may be enough to sink any hope of progress on that front.

Re: A new approach to China

#116

Post by romland » Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 1:25 AM UTC

acangiano wrote: post #27

Major kudos to Google. This is an outstanding outcome. We want to make clear that this move was driven by our executives in the United States, without the knowledge or involvement of our employees in China who have worked incredibly hard to make Google.cn the success it is today. How sad that they had to specify this, or a few of their Chinese employees would risk their freedom, or worst, their lives.

What I read between the lines there was: "We have the feeling that this might have been made possible due to an inside job by one or more of our employees in China. However, we don't know who or to what extent and we'd rather not do our dirty laundry in public."

Call me cynical. :/

Re: A new approach to China

#117

Post by zaphar » Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 1:26 AM UTC

tjic wrote: post #13

> We have decided we are no longer willing to continue censoring our results on Google.cn Kudos to Google! Amazing. You work for a great company, Googlers!

I know and I couldn't be prouder right now.

Re: A new approach to China

#118

Post by jhancock » Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 1:28 AM UTC

riobard wrote: post #44

I want to add some background knowledge: - ever since the ending of the Olympics in 2008, Chinese government started a series of large scale "cleaning up" operations all in the name of removing porn from the Internet (while we all know what's the more obvious reason ...). - Many report that as of now Xinjiang Autonomous Region has Internet access to only a few selected official websites after the riot in 2009. - Ther…

I'm not defending the China gov for these actions (and many not listed above). When criticizing these actions, it helps to understand the tremendous strains within China. China has changed more in the last 10 years than possibly any other country in the history of the world. These changes are accompanied by massive externalities. There are some serious powder kegs of anger and resentment, Xinjiang being a prime example. I'm not taking you to task for your criticism, but if you were a top government leader in China today, how would you handle these issues? Keep in mind that if your answer is to just make things free and open, there will most likely be a price to pay. You may say the short-term price of social disruption is worth the potential long-term benefits. However, there is no guarantee China would survive such extensive social disorder.

Controlling internet traffic is both a citizen control issue and an economic protection plan. I don't know what is in the reams of WTO deals China has made but its possible they never agreed to play free and open with companies outside China for access to their Internet user base. You may not agree with this protectionist approach, but it fits squarely within China's "middle-kingdom" mentality.

Again, don't take my words as a defense of any of China's actions. But seriously, what would you do if you were in charge? I certainly wouldn't take the job.

Re: A new approach to China

#119

Post by wildwood » Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 1:29 AM UTC

andrewljohnson wrote: post #23

Call me suspicious, but could this pull-out have anything to do with Google getting beat up by Baidu? Maybe getting beat isn't the reason for pulling out, but it at least makes the decision much easier if you aren't the market leader in the country. Another big company, GE, will shut down businesses where they aren't 1st or 2nd in a market. If Google were dominant in China or making a lot of money, this decision migh…

Google got whipped by Yahoo JP for quite a while, as I recall, and they stuck with it. They're still getting their asses handed to them in South Korea.

This doesn't seem like a decision that's being based on market share. And Google doesn't have a track record for bailing on tough markets. With their cost structure, why would they? (Google doesn't have near the physical plant costs that GE does.)

Re: A new approach to China

#120

Post by jfischer » Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 1:31 AM UTC

netcan wrote: post #91

jfischer wrote: post #71

I'm all for taking the high ground, but I highly doubt this will change the Chinese government's behavior. Google doesn't have such a huge market share in China and leaving will only help local competition (e.g. Baidu) that can be more easily controlled by the government. What leverage does Google have? This is really the classic engagement vs. isolation debate. The only thing that might have any leverage would be to…

Depending how this unfolds, I would expect a shallow but broad effect on Chinese business. Imagine that all Google properties get banned: Interoperability with foreign businesses becomes a minor issue. Small business-to-small-business gets a little bit of friction (eg, cannot read your spreadsheet). Some classes of (especially outsourcing) Chinese companies cannot compete. They cannot provide ppc or seo services. Chi…

I'm not convinced. Google is talking about shutting down google.cn, not blocking google.com from the Chinese internet. I've used google services from China without any issues. Also, the local market in China is much more Windows-focused than in the U.S. I think Microsoft leaving the Chinese market would have a huge effect.

Overall, the question is not whether it has an impact on Chinese business but whether it would have enough of an impact to influence the decision makers in the government.