The Devastating Effect of Ad-Blockers for Guru3D.com • Hacker News Board

Re: The Devastating Effect of Ad-Blockers for Guru3D.com

#181

Post by bad_user » Sun, Nov 01, 2015, 6:37 PM UTC

imgabe wrote: post #137

jhall1468 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's exactly this kind of attitude that is going to lead to paywalls for virtually every type of content on the Internet. And the people that use the most heavy-handed approaches with ad-blocking are going to be the same people that are screaming "NOT MY PROBLEM" while the ship goes down. Their business model doesn't require changes to reality. Their business model requires the end-user to accept reality for what it…

Most content is worthless. Content that has actual monetary value to someone, market research data for instance, has no trouble finding people willing to pay for it. The fact is most "news" and other article type sites do not serve a purpose other than satisfying some idle curiosity or passing time. Very little of it has a material impact on anyone's day to day life. The purpose can easily be filled by some alternate…

You are probably a middle-class caucasian male from a western country. I can make that assumption because this willingness to pay that you're talking about cannot be a reality for the poor or for citizens of underdeveloped countries, or in other words ... the majority.

Re: The Devastating Effect of Ad-Blockers for Guru3D.com

#182

Post by bad_user » Sun, Nov 01, 2015, 6:40 PM UTC

JDDunn9 wrote: post #25

I remember a time on the Internet before ads, when the only websites were made by geeks who were passionate about the topic. Then came the popup ads, followed by the popup blockers, banners never worked, then came contextual ads. Google made it quick and easy to profit from content and made content a commodity. Currently they are the #1 financier of web spam, and pay off ad-blockers to whitelist their ads. There's no…

> I have no problem paying for quality content (Netflix, Hulu Plus, Audible, etc.)

Funny that you mention that. Netflix and Hulu are not available in my country and my country is in the EU. As an american, you may not realize it, but paywalls are going to lead to a balkanization of the Internet, a process that is well on its way to being a reality.

Re: The Devastating Effect of Ad-Blockers for Guru3D.com

#183

Post by jhall1468 » Sun, Nov 01, 2015, 6:40 PM UTC

bigbugbag wrote: post #169

jhall1468 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reality is that it's not too late to ditch the ad-based business model and build a better web The article is a 10-page document on why "surveillance" (tracking) is evil and effectively offers no solution outside of (maybe) micro-payments as a means to compensate, which directly counters the first argument you made that paying will never free us from ads. So which is it?

Had you read the argument about paying for content not freeing us from being targeted by advertisers, you would have noticed it is based on showing buying power, something micro payment is not really doing. If you want solutions you can look at patreon, flattr, crowdfunded websites, wikipedia,…

> Had you read the argument about paying for content not freeing us from being targeted by advertisers, you would have noticed it is based on showing buying power, something micro payment is not really doing.

"Not really doing" doesn't exactly encouraging. You are making assumptions based on an idea that's never been tested, let alone shown to work. I think it's an interesting idea that may work for some content, and may not work for others. But let's not pretend that the article is, in any way, based on a real working model.

> If you want solutions you can look at patreon, flattr, crowdfunded websites, wikipedia,…

Patreon, flattr and crowdfunding are all the same thing. Exchanging money for content/creation. This is not a new solution to the problem, they are all platforms for solutions that are as old as money.

Wikipedia is a non-profit that survives on donations. Pretending that every form of content should be, or could be, non-profit is as silly as saying that every form of content can happily survive on microtransactions.

Re: The Devastating Effect of Ad-Blockers for Guru3D.com

#184

Post by JoshTriplett » Sun, Nov 01, 2015, 6:42 PM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #160

greggman wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's what will happen. Ad firms will come up with a server side API you plug into your website so ads can come through your site. You've just made the security problem worse not better as coming from the same site they are allowed to read everything that site does vs coming from iframes from different domains in which case they are allowed to read nothing.

No, the tracking becomes specific to the site visited (same origin policy), not cross-websites, and I don't have a problem with that. Now there is also the debate of whether all sites deserve to be able to run javascript. I say no. But some people here think that even rendering a blog article should require a lot of client side scripting.

> No, the tracking becomes specific to the site visited (same origin policy), not cross-websites, and I don't have a problem with that.

You're assuming the server-side scripts won't share data with a central server.

Re: The Devastating Effect of Ad-Blockers for Guru3D.com

#185

Post by pdabbadabba » Sun, Nov 01, 2015, 6:42 PM UTC

bmelton wrote: post #148

Floegipoky wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My favorite part of HN, the reason I prefer this news feed over any other, is because the comments are usually intelligent and civil. Your comment here is neither, and it just turned a discussion about the morality of ad-blocking and the viability of ad-based revenue models into a dick measuring contest. Not cool.

A more charitable reading of DanBC's comment is simply inquisitive. If we're going to hold civility in such high esteem, then we should also be assuming good faith, which it seems you have not done.

Honestly now. I am as enthusiastic a practitioner of the principle of charity as anyone else, but that doesn't mean you have to ignore overwhelming signs of bad faith when they're staring you in the face.

When Floegipoky decided DanBC's comment was probably not made in good faith, I don't think it's fair to characterize this as a mere assumption. More like an inference well supported by the available evidence.

Re: The Devastating Effect of Ad-Blockers for Guru3D.com

#186

Post by bad_user » Sun, Nov 01, 2015, 6:45 PM UTC

wazoox wrote: post #153

hannob wrote: post #22

This is so common for the many anti-adblock texts you see these days - they all avoid to talk about the major issues here. (I say that with the background that a significant part of my income comes from ad-financed news pages.) That is: * Security risk through ads (malvertising, ad networks not supporting https etc.). * Ads killing performance (70% CPU for a flash ad is not uncommon). * Privacy (Ad vendors having mos…

And don't forget the bandwidth and capacity usage for those on capped mobile data. I only have a 512MB/month allowance, I don't want it spent on downloading ads.

That's bullshit. If you don't want those ads, then don't consume that content.

Re: The Devastating Effect of Ad-Blockers for Guru3D.com

#187

Post by jhall1468 » Sun, Nov 01, 2015, 6:45 PM UTC

njharman wrote: post #163

jhall1468 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's exactly this kind of attitude that is going to lead to paywalls for virtually every type of content on the Internet. And the people that use the most heavy-handed approaches with ad-blocking are going to be the same people that are screaming "NOT MY PROBLEM" while the ship goes down. Their business model doesn't require changes to reality. Their business model requires the end-user to accept reality for what it…

That's fine. If paywalls is the business model that works (I don't think it is for most content (it's really just not worth anything even ad eyeball time)) then that is how it will be. I'm not a huge "free-market" proponent. But markets exist, and they aren't magic. They smove to solution(s) that the market wants / willing to "pay" for. Pay in broadest sense, money, eyeballs, time, etc. As a business you can fight a…

> That's fine. If paywalls is the business model that works (I don't think it is for most content (it's really just not worth anything even ad eyeball time)) then that is how it will be.

This argument is already so tired. When you limit all options to one, that option has to be taken whether or not it is a good option. If everyone blocked every advertisement indiscriminately there would be no other option available but pay-walling. That isn't a good option because, as you said, most content will either die or be replaced by free content, which may or may not be as good.

> As a business you can fight a losing battle against the tide. Or you can ride it. Hoping the tide doesn't exist or doesn't apply to you, is delusional.

The only delusions are those held by people that think the tide is a good thing.

The reality is that ads are not going away. What's happening is ads are becoming a business that is only sustainable by enormous companies. Google and Facebook will survive and they will profit off of ads. Guru3D will not. The opportunity for competition will dry up, because you won't be able to profit with ads and you can't charge for what is already free.

Re: The Devastating Effect of Ad-Blockers for Guru3D.com

#188

Post by mozumder » Sun, Nov 01, 2015, 6:46 PM UTC

robgibbons wrote: post #135

mozumder wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea what the practical ramifications of this complaint means... What exactly is the fear of "intrusive tracking and spying"? What does it mean? Are you scared that you're now going to get ads that target your demographic, such as motherboards, instead of ads that don't target your demographic, such as Alzheimers drugs? I don't understand the problem with this. If that's not the fear, then state the ultimat…

I don't need to justify my right to privacy. All you need to know is that I don't want my browsing habits tracked and correlated across virtually every site I visit, by a small handful of companies that have nothing to do with the content I am seeking. The burden is not on me to justify why I disagree with these practices.

The burden is on you to justify your right to privacy. Otherwise it just makes you look bad, as if you're trying to defend indefensible actions. Remember, you're visiting THEIR sites. They aren't visiting your sites. They have something you want when you visit their sites, and you have to offer something in return.

If you're unable to justify yourself, then companies (both advertisers and media publishers) will proceed as they wish. Your privacy is not their concern. You need to make it their concern.

Right now ad blockers are just a mere stepping stone for these companies to track you. When they proceed with native ads (among many other options), it's going to be really difficult for you to block them.

Do you want these companies to move forward to their next step in tracking you?

Re: The Devastating Effect of Ad-Blockers for Guru3D.com

#189

Post by cantagi » Sun, Nov 01, 2015, 6:49 PM UTC

nwhitmore wrote: post #131

jwmerrill wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Response 1: whether this question already has a technical answer that you find satisfying does not affect whether using an ad blocker is theft. Response 2: a few sites are already popping up messages asking you to turn off your ad blocker, which is at least a partial existence proof. Response 3: if you want to know whether I got your ads, use cookies or make the request url unique to me, and then check that your ad s…

So, your viewpoint boils down to either I allow my content to be viewed solely on your terms or I go out of business. Sounds like the type of negotiation the mob engages in. But, hey, as long as you get what you want, I guess it is ok.

That's actually how all businesses work. If the terms of business aren't acceptable to your users, you lose the users and your business will fail.

Adverts are non-consensual hijacking of users resources, so you could argue that advertisers are committing theft. You're welcome to use a paywall on your site, or hide content from people using adblockers if you want to negotiate from your side.

Re: The Devastating Effect of Ad-Blockers for Guru3D.com

#190

Post by bigbugbag » Sun, Nov 01, 2015, 6:50 PM UTC

jhall1468 wrote: post #167

bigbugbag wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There cannot be such a happy medium as long as ads are increasingly "targeted" and "third party". "Targeted ads" means surveillance, profiling, tracking, massive privacy invasion. "Third party" means poorer performance and having no control on your main source of revenue (see the stories about google censoring content on google ads based websites). Duckduckgo makes a good case for non-targeted ads while still being p…

> Duckduckgo makes a good case for non-targeted ads while stille being profitable. So there is a happy medium and, in your opinion, it's non-targeted ads. Yet uBlock and uBlock Origin and the millions of people that use them are blocking DuckDuckGo ads. piwik is an open-source, locally installed, piece of analytic's software that is blocked by default in the above AND in adblock. So you are making an argument that is…

Sorry, I may have not expressed myself in clear enough way, please allow me to try again:

IMO there is no happy medium, all ads are unwelcomed on the net.

duckduckgo debunks the myth that ads need to be targeted as is the usual investor storytime myth.

I was using phpmyvisites before it spawned piwik and have been pushing piwik as an alternative to google analytics since, still piwik is a tracking mechanism and as such is expected to be blocked, but additional tracking script vs parsing web server logs is another debate.