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Programmer Tim Clemans Resigns from Seattle Police Department After Six Months

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Re: Programmer Tim Clemans Resigns from Seattle Police Department After Six Months

#51

Post by krapp »

sleepybrett wrote: post #46
kzhahou wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe he just deployed a webapp that the people in the communications center could access... I can hardly thing of a single bit of code that should be deployed in such a literal life-and-death environment, which shouldn't go through FULL REVIEW. Maybe it's a small webapp that gives a bit more information -- which leads dispatchers in the wrong direction one out of ten times. Maybe his "highlighting the most critica…

Clemens is in the comment thread. It seems like the system he wrote read out of the 911 call database and displayed all the active calls. Then highlighted calls based on keywords so the head dispatcher could more easily see high priority calls ( crimes in progress ? ). This seems very safe. The captain in question is just protecting his turf. Even if he saw the benefit he would never admit it because it wasn't his id…

They hired Clemans as a programmer and already implemented some of his ideas - I don't think jealousy is a motivating factor here.

Re: Programmer Tim Clemans Resigns from Seattle Police Department After Six Months

#52

Post by aeorgnoieang »

sleepybrett wrote: post #46
kzhahou wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe he just deployed a webapp that the people in the communications center could access... I can hardly thing of a single bit of code that should be deployed in such a literal life-and-death environment, which shouldn't go through FULL REVIEW. Maybe it's a small webapp that gives a bit more information -- which leads dispatchers in the wrong direction one out of ten times. Maybe his "highlighting the most critica…

Clemens is in the comment thread. It seems like the system he wrote read out of the 911 call database and displayed all the active calls. Then highlighted calls based on keywords so the head dispatcher could more easily see high priority calls ( crimes in progress ? ). This seems very safe. The captain in question is just protecting his turf. Even if he saw the benefit he would never admit it because it wasn't his id…

I'd love to read an 'AMA' style post, or even just an interview done by another programmer, to learn more about what exactly he did, and how he did it.

Re: Programmer Tim Clemans Resigns from Seattle Police Department After Six Months

#53

Post by aeorgnoieang »

CountSessine wrote: post #35
ihsw wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never is a strong word, I think it's too strong. You are absolutely correct that he had no authority to perform modifications to a critical public service, and that his actions bordered on reckless and negligent and that his response to the captain's accusations was cringe-worthy as well as indicative of the ignorance of his actions, but I think it stands to reason that the captain could have handled the situation mo…

Clemans' actions can be chalked up to youthful ignorance and exuberance, whereas the captain has no excuse. He is the central source of truth and the ultimate arbiter in the situation, he should know better than to react so aggressively to one of his own staff members. React aggressively to some aspergers-afflicted kid cavalierly modifying and possibly breaking a public emergency response system with an expected upti…

How do you know Clemans has Aspergers?

Re: Programmer Tim Clemans Resigns from Seattle Police Department After Six Months

#54

Post by CountSessine »

aeorgnoieang wrote: post #43
CountSessine wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He helped them do their job, in the way they should do their job, but in a way which was efficient and directly led to better, and possibly life-saving, outcomes to residents of Seattle. How did it determine call priority? How did it order priority? How was the ordering presented? Was the computer system itself modified, or was it running on a parallel, out-of-band system? Did the call system computer need to run new…

Are all of your questions rhetorical? Or would the answers to them change whether you think Clemans should have been fired on the spot? Would it matter that, as badly as Clemans may have behaved, he was significantly better than the other IT staff that worked in the center? Just based on the post, I don't expect its author to even know enough to ask any of the questions you have. Why are you assuming the worst? Is th…

Are all of your questions rhetorical? Or would the answers to them change whether you think Clemans should have been fired on the spot?

If any of those answers were any different than what I expect they are, it would have required the participation of the larger IT apparatus at the SPD. In which case, his boss probably would have been suspended as well.

Would it matter that, as badly as Clemans may have behaved, he was significantly better than the other IT staff that worked in the centre?

better? That is positively dripping in thoughtless elitism.

But for the sake of argument, better than the other IT staff who worked with their superiors to define solutions to requirements rather than railroading their pet ideas through? Better than the other IT staff who understand the extraordinary intolerance the public has for acute and sudden failure in public agencies? If this clueless cowboy had brought the 911 dispatch system down, heads would have rolled. Clemens can waddle off and get a new private sector job, but what about everyone else caught up in the mess?

Just based on the post, I don't expect its author to even know enough to ask any of the questions you have. Why are you assuming the worst? Is there anything specific that makes you think Clemans was irresponsible?

The hissy-fit he threw when he didn't get his way? Why, based on this article, would you ever give Clemens the benefit of the doubt? Especially when he's pitted against a public servant who has most likely risked his life on more than one occasion in the line of duty?

Re: Programmer Tim Clemans Resigns from Seattle Police Department After Six Months

#55

Post by kzhahou »

sleepybrett wrote: post #46
kzhahou wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe he just deployed a webapp that the people in the communications center could access... I can hardly thing of a single bit of code that should be deployed in such a literal life-and-death environment, which shouldn't go through FULL REVIEW. Maybe it's a small webapp that gives a bit more information -- which leads dispatchers in the wrong direction one out of ten times. Maybe his "highlighting the most critica…

Clemens is in the comment thread. It seems like the system he wrote read out of the 911 call database and displayed all the active calls. Then highlighted calls based on keywords so the head dispatcher could more easily see high priority calls ( crimes in progress ? ). This seems very safe. The captain in question is just protecting his turf. Even if he saw the benefit he would never admit it because it wasn't his id…

Phrased more charitably, "protecting his turf" is actually "doing his job."

With the little information available, I can see the captain's position. The programmer was new and rolled out changes to the surprise of the captain. Programmer hadn't earned captain's trust yet, and was pushing out new procedures which the captain did not (?) agree with. That'd be a no-no in any company, just substitute CEO for captain.

Regardless of whether his system was fantastic, the manager in any org is meant to be a safeguard, even when it feels like a bottleneck.

Re: Programmer Tim Clemans Resigns from Seattle Police Department After Six Months

#56

Post by loco5niner »

pascalmemories wrote: post #11
metric10 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the reason he blew up was because any changes to the way 911 operators worked had to be approved. Wow. What I can't believe was that he was allowed to resign and wasn't fired on the spot.

You read the story quite differently from me. I don't think he changed how they operated at all. He gave them a program which highlighted the most critical calls for most urgent attention. That's EXACTLY how 911 operators are SUPPOSED to operate. CAD systems are supposed to do that but it can be difficult to properly do that when lots of calls come in - and when a really critical calls does come in, it frequently is…

> He gave them a program which highlighted the most critical calls for most urgent attention.

Sounds like he changed how they operated to me

Re: Programmer Tim Clemans Resigns from Seattle Police Department After Six Months

#57

Post by mcguire »

ihsw wrote: post #5
arcticfox wrote: post #2

From the limited context of the article, Clemans sounds very talented and helpful but "blowing up, yelling, and cursing" when someone dismisses the helpfulness of a project is not an ideal way to change a culture.

It seems pretty clear that the captain wasn't dismissing the helpfulness but rather dismissing Clemans' authority to deploy the project. It's a power play, and Clemans' disdain for rigid power structures clearly contributed to the friction between him and the SPD administration. EDIT: the captain's response is not unwarranted at all. Emergency response call centers are a critical public resource and he is ultimately…

"However, not long afterward, according to Clemans, longtime SPD captain Ron Rasmussen complained in a meeting that all changes in the center had to go through him. Rasmussen dismissed the usefulness of the highlighter program, Clemans said."

Re: Programmer Tim Clemans Resigns from Seattle Police Department After Six Months

#58

Post by CountSessine »

spacemanmatt wrote: post #23
themartorana wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically. Short of owning my own company, I've never been allowed to make sweeping changes unilaterally. Hell, I have a business partner, so even now I don't get to make changes unilaterally. The first time someone isn't as impressed with this guy as himself, he goes red.

You make him sound like a cop.

Cops make a living dealing with people with extremely poor impulse control and bad judgement. This sounds like another day at the office at the SPD.

Re: Programmer Tim Clemans Resigns from Seattle Police Department After Six Months

#59

Post by newjersey »

15charlimit wrote: post #42
CountSessine wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very cynical view of police.

That's a very accurate view of most police. Fixed it for you.

Yes and it is for a good reason. Earlier today in New Jersey:

> A jury yesterday found Spolizino, 37, not guilty of death by auto and leaving the scene of a fatal accident in the death of 24-year-old Stephen Clifford on April 19, 2013. An aggravated manslaughter charge had been tossed earlier by the judge.

http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2015/10/acquitted_jersey_...

> Authorities said Spolizino was driving 60 miles per hour -- 35 MPH over the speed limit -- when his vehicle struck Clifford on Kennedy Boulevard. The state argued Spolizino caused Clifford's death through the recklessness of the speed at which he was driving.

> The jury disagreed.

> Video showed the pickup continue north on Kennedy Boulevard where it went through a red light at Montgomery Street before pulling over.

> The video then showed the pickup go into reverse and back up to Montgomery, the officer quickly dialed 911 and a witness said he saw the officer at the scene of the crash within five to 10 minutes of the impact.

> During the trial, Garrigan noted that Clifford was crossing against the green, implying that Clifford bore some of the responsibility. He also noted that speeding on Kennedy Boulevard is common.

http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2015/10/jersey_city_polic...

I don't have any insight into the case in particular but I really doubt the outcome would have been the same if the person driving were not a police officer.

In other news, the NJ police had choice words for Tarantino.

> The New Jersey State Policeman’s Benevolent Association has become the latest police organization to call for a boycott of Quentin Tarantino’s films, following the director’s participation in an anti-police brutality march in New York last weekend.

[...]

>“Quentin Tarantino needs to understand that as a public figure his voice is one that people listen to,” Colligan’s statement continued. “He has an obligation to be more responsible. This is not a movie, this is real life where police officers lives are impacted by his words.”

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/10/30/new-jersey-police-quent... (sorry for quoting ew, you don't have to click the link)

You know what impacts police officers' credibility more than a director's words? The benches of police officers that filled up in solidarity of a police officer who doesn't deny that he was behind the wheel of a car in a hit and run case driving 60 miles per hour on a 35 miles per hour area. Would any of the police officers be there if it was... I don't know... an undocumented immigrant without a license or an out of state driver or anyone who was not a police officer?

Re: Programmer Tim Clemans Resigns from Seattle Police Department After Six Months

#60

Post by tankerdude »

Don't get it. This whole thing could have been solved in a 5 minute review with folks. Maybe they want more than just that 1 feature?

Either way, installing _any_ software, even those that only do a read (how does he even know that that's all it did?) to a mission critical piece must always be vetted, end of story. Heck, even a _read_ could take down the system if it did lots of JOINs a slower DB, etc.

Just because you can get something running doesn't mean you're a systems engineer.

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