Programmer Tim Clemans Resigns from Seattle Police Department After Six Months • Hacker News Board

Re: Programmer Tim Clemans Resigns from Seattle Police Department After Six Months

#21

Post by metric10 » Fri, Oct 30, 2015, 7:37 PM UTC

pascalmemories wrote: post #11

metric10 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the reason he blew up was because any changes to the way 911 operators worked had to be approved. Wow. What I can't believe was that he was allowed to resign and wasn't fired on the spot.

You read the story quite differently from me. I don't think he changed how they operated at all. He gave them a program which highlighted the most critical calls for most urgent attention. That's EXACTLY how 911 operators are SUPPOSED to operate. CAD systems are supposed to do that but it can be difficult to properly do that when lots of calls come in - and when a really critical calls does come in, it frequently is…

Yes, it's how they are supposed to operate. But what makes a call "high priority?" Are 911 operators actually working off this list? What happens if the program fails; what's their back up plan? What happens if there's a bug in the program, is he going to fix it or will he have lost interest? Are their regulations about maintaining a log of what was displayed in case of a lawsuit? Where's the source code, what happens if this guy resigns 3 months later?

There are so many questions that need to be answered and thought out. I'm sure it was a good idea and probably should have been pursued.

As for firing him, it's not because of this program. It's because of the unprofessional way he reacted to criticism. The article says he actually had to be escorted out of the building. I would completely expect someone to be fired for that, especially if the SPD really where such a hostile environment to new ideas.

I'm not saying he HAD to be fired, but the article seems to take the tone that the SPD was being unreasonable. It would seem they where being very accommodating even in light of his childish behavior.

Re: Programmer Tim Clemans Resigns from Seattle Police Department After Six Months

#22

Post by tonomics » Fri, Oct 30, 2015, 7:37 PM UTC

arcticfox wrote: post #2

From the limited context of the article, Clemans sounds very talented and helpful but "blowing up, yelling, and cursing" when someone dismisses the helpfulness of a project is not an ideal way to change a culture.

I'm not convinced a 'calm and rational conversation' would help either. Seems like his superiors were filled with aggressiveness and testosterone.

Re: Programmer Tim Clemans Resigns from Seattle Police Department After Six Months

#23

Post by spacemanmatt » Fri, Oct 30, 2015, 7:41 PM UTC

themartorana wrote: post #8

metric10 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the reason he blew up was because any changes to the way 911 operators worked had to be approved. Wow. What I can't believe was that he was allowed to resign and wasn't fired on the spot.

Basically. Short of owning my own company, I've never been allowed to make sweeping changes unilaterally. Hell, I have a business partner, so even now I don't get to make changes unilaterally. The first time someone isn't as impressed with this guy as himself, he goes red.

You make him sound like a cop.

Re: Programmer Tim Clemans Resigns from Seattle Police Department After Six Months

#24

Post by jason_slack » Fri, Oct 30, 2015, 7:42 PM UTC

Let's talk about some of the things he did. The highlighting of the most important calls seems useful, but the article also mentioned he developed "blurring of anything that moves in police footage". What is the benefit of this?

Re: Programmer Tim Clemans Resigns from Seattle Police Department After Six Months

#25

Post by derefr » Fri, Oct 30, 2015, 7:42 PM UTC

buffportion wrote: post #20

pascalmemories wrote: post #7

Unfortunately, policing culture is very territorial and operates at extreme levels of testosterone fueled territory marking. A tech-nerd (with possibly some autistic traits from the descriptions) is never going to get along in that environment without someone seriously watching over them. And whoever that is, will have some serious work to do in order to get the best for the department. Cops are trained to push peopl…

"Cops are trained to push peoples buttons and make them lose control" They are? I could see why, say, detectives interviewing a suspect might use that approach to try to get them to say something incriminating, but for regular cops I would think their job is made much easier if the people they interact with are calm.

Think of executing searches. A cop needs a reason to search someone (their person, their car, etc.), beyond just being suspicious. Frequently they can prod people into providing them such a reason.

Re: Programmer Tim Clemans Resigns from Seattle Police Department After Six Months

#26

Post by ihsw » Fri, Oct 30, 2015, 7:43 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #17

ihsw wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems pretty clear that the captain wasn't dismissing the helpfulness but rather dismissing Clemans' authority to deploy the project. It's a power play, and Clemans' disdain for rigid power structures clearly contributed to the friction between him and the SPD administration. EDIT: the captain's response is not unwarranted at all. Emergency response call centers are a critical public resource and he is ultimately…

What is worse, it is not even clear that the captain is entirely wrong here. If Clemans screwed up, he had the potential to have 911 calls be routed to /dev/null. If he succeeded, the department became more efficient. However the 911 system is already working "well enough". Therefore in terms of outside perception any win will be small, and disasters could be huge. He is not the one who has been give the authority to…

Never is a strong word, I think it's too strong.

You are absolutely correct that he had no authority to perform modifications to a critical public service, and that his actions bordered on reckless and negligent and that his response to the captain's accusations was cringe-worthy as well as indicative of the ignorance of his actions, but I think it stands to reason that the captain could have handled the situation more diplomatically.

Granted, I would probably get into a shouting match with Clemans for what he did (and I'm just another developer), but that hardly justifies barring him from entering the premises until further notice.

Clemans' actions can be chalked up to youthful ignorance and exuberance, whereas the captain has no excuse. He is the central source of truth and the ultimate arbiter in the situation, he should know better than to react so aggressively to one of his own staff members.

Re: Programmer Tim Clemans Resigns from Seattle Police Department After Six Months

#27

Post by jhou2 » Fri, Oct 30, 2015, 7:44 PM UTC

jason_slack wrote: post #24

Let's talk about some of the things he did. The highlighting of the most important calls seems useful, but the article also mentioned he developed "blurring of anything that moves in police footage". What is the benefit of this?

It's for privacy. Before this feature, the SPD had someone manually blur out faces to protect privacy. The burden this placed on police resources was a large factor in why they didn't want to or couldn't comply with public records requests.

Re: Programmer Tim Clemans Resigns from Seattle Police Department After Six Months

#28

Post by redblacktree » Fri, Oct 30, 2015, 7:46 PM UTC

jason_slack wrote: post #24

Let's talk about some of the things he did. The highlighting of the most important calls seems useful, but the article also mentioned he developed "blurring of anything that moves in police footage". What is the benefit of this?

I assumed it was for automated privacy. So they can release all video footage without review.

Re: Programmer Tim Clemans Resigns from Seattle Police Department After Six Months

#29

Post by aggieben » Fri, Oct 30, 2015, 7:48 PM UTC

As a programmer, this seems like this is almost entirely Clemans fault. Good grief: you can't just walk into a mission-critical, production environment and start deploying crap, even if the dispatchers like it.

Yelling at your boss who rightly pulled the plug on that stunt is hardly justified. Whether or not it's a firing offense depends on a lot of things the article doesn't tell us, but..

This is really not the "idealistic and pure-hearted lowly programmer" vs "corrupt and overly political, turf-controlling police culture" it makes it out to be.

Re: Programmer Tim Clemans Resigns from Seattle Police Department After Six Months

#30

Post by woodman » Fri, Oct 30, 2015, 7:50 PM UTC

buffportion wrote: post #20

pascalmemories wrote: post #7

Unfortunately, policing culture is very territorial and operates at extreme levels of testosterone fueled territory marking. A tech-nerd (with possibly some autistic traits from the descriptions) is never going to get along in that environment without someone seriously watching over them. And whoever that is, will have some serious work to do in order to get the best for the department. Cops are trained to push peopl…

"Cops are trained to push peoples buttons and make them lose control" They are? I could see why, say, detectives interviewing a suspect might use that approach to try to get them to say something incriminating, but for regular cops I would think their job is made much easier if the people they interact with are calm.

That is not in their own interest though, the incentives aren't aligned with the stated mission. Consider job security, advancement and cop culture.