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The Economist's US college rankings

economist.com

41–50 of 108 posts

Re: The Economist's US college rankings

#41
post #9

I am a proud alumnus of Rice University and I see that it is on page 64, fifth from the bottom. Also, even more surprisingly, very near the bottom is Caltech. This is obviously wrong. If their methodology says that Caltech is in the bottom 2% of US colleges, then one concludes that their methodology is worthless, or at least that what it's predicting is not very closely related to the quality of the education provide…

> This is obviously wrong. "The analysis goes against my gut feeling, therefore it's wrong." Did you bother to read the article? The Economist’s first-ever college rankings are based on a simple, if debatable, premise: the economic value of a university is equal to the gap between how much money its graduates earn, and how much they might have made had they studied elsewhere. That's what they did, and those were the…

I think he has a point, though. This study doesn't seem to control for an incredibly important variable: student interests.

If one school tends to attract students interested in making a lot of money, and another school tends to attract students interested more in academics and graduate school, can one really conclude that the former adds more value? Perhaps, but certainly not without taking into account the different student interests and inclinations towards money-making.

They do control for field of study, but I don't think this is sufficient. A school that attracts a lot of STEM majors who go to graduate school instead of industry is pretty much going to get destroyed in this study.

Re: The Economist's US college rankings

#42

The concept of studying in Higher Education for more opportunities, job stability, and income during one's lifetime is not to be dismissed. That said, if the predominant value of education is in the pursuit of money, then I think using the Brookings Institute model (which The Economist references) that includes two-year and vocational education entities is a much more pragmatic and practical approach. That is, if mon…

Even if the predominant value of education is the pursuit of money, the Economist still has the more useful model. It allows you to differentiate between schools whose graduates make money because they are full of people who are going to try to make money, and schools that make money because the school brings something to the table that helps its graduates above other options.

Look at CalTech for example. It does well in the Brookings model because it attracts a lot of people who want to be engineers. It does poorly in The Economist's model because its engineers are not making as much in 10 years as would be expected given a variety of factors that they control for. (Now that said, CalTech may be hurt because they graduate a lot of people who take side tracks through grad school and presumably would make more 15-20 years out. But you have to work with the data you have, and all they had was 10 years.)

Now if I'm a student planning to go into engineering, the Brookings model merely confirms that I'm making an excellent choice. The Economist's model suggests that if I'm capable of going to CalTech, maybe that is not the best school for me.

Re: The Economist's US college rankings

#43
The data makes more sense if you sort by expected earnings or median earnings and then compare within localized clusters of universities. For example, MIT and Caltech have similar expected earnings, but MIT wins on median earnings.

Re: The Economist's US college rankings

#44
post #8
post #4

This tool would be a lot more useful if it allowed for filtering by chosen course of study. For example, University of Washington has a median earnings that is slightly below expected, but I can pretty much guarantee that their computer science graduates are earning well above median.

It assumes you select a school that is focused on your field of choice, so if you pick an art school, your preference is for art, and if you pick an engineering school, your preference is for engineering.

The issue is that you can't select the University of Washington's engineering school. You can only see University of Washington which has both an engineering and an art school, and so it doesn't tell you what the data will be if you only look at engineering students.

Re: The Economist's US college rankings

#45
post #9

I am a proud alumnus of Rice University and I see that it is on page 64, fifth from the bottom. Also, even more surprisingly, very near the bottom is Caltech. This is obviously wrong. If their methodology says that Caltech is in the bottom 2% of US colleges, then one concludes that their methodology is worthless, or at least that what it's predicting is not very closely related to the quality of the education provide…

> This is obviously wrong. "The analysis goes against my gut feeling, therefore it's wrong." Did you bother to read the article? The Economist’s first-ever college rankings are based on a simple, if debatable, premise: the economic value of a university is equal to the gap between how much money its graduates earn, and how much they might have made had they studied elsewhere. That's what they did, and those were the…

> Did you bother to read the article?

Yes, I did. In suggesting that their methodology is "debatable", they are indeed hedging their bets. But they are still advancing the theory that, after looking at the data, one could plausibly accept their model.

My "anecdotes" consist of four years as an undergraduate at a university (Rice) rated in the bottom 0.5%. I know damn well that Rice prepared the vast majority of students to be extraordinarily successful in the career paths they chose. I also know that my education was tremendously valuable for its own sake, and that the same was true for my classmates.

And as an academic now teaching at the University of South Carolina, I can only wish that we offered our students what was offered at Rice.

It is true, as a Rice graduate I am biased. But nevertheless I do not believe that I am stretching when assert with confidence that, according to any metric which measures anything worth measuring, Rice lies somewhere in the top 99.5% of universities in the US.

Re: The Economist's US college rankings

#47

The concept of studying in Higher Education for more opportunities, job stability, and income during one's lifetime is not to be dismissed. That said, if the predominant value of education is in the pursuit of money, then I think using the Brookings Institute model (which The Economist references) that includes two-year and vocational education entities is a much more pragmatic and practical approach. That is, if mon…

Interesting. According to Brookings, Amarillo College (2 year), West Texas A&M, and UT Austin rank roughly the same (mid 70s).

Re: The Economist's US college rankings

#48

There seems to be a major issue with cost-of-living adjustments as well. Several rather obscure California colleges are highly ranked, and I assume this is because both wages and costs are higher in California, where many of their graduates stay after college.

> There seems to be a major issue with cost-of-living adjustments

Yep yep. Otis College of Art and Design "overperforming" for $42k salary is ridiculous. The title Junior Graphic Designer pays around $40k* in Los Angeles, where Otis is located. Therefore, the average for graduates is as-expected. *Source: Glassdoor.

Re: The Economist's US college rankings

#49
This analysis doesn't make any sense to me. Even by their own intent (i.e., best added value based on salary), their methodology is nonsensical.

For example: Why should CalTech get hurt for being near L.A.? They're basically arguing that you're better off going to a school in the middle of nowhere because "hey, for being in such a crappy location, you did pretty well!". In an absolute sense you are better off going to CalTech, it's just that they might not leverage their advantage as well as some other schools.

Not that they even show the last point -- it seems unlikely that the true model is linear (I'm guessing they used linear regression). For example, if the true model is closer to a sigmoid, then schools at the high end suddenly get unfairly penalized and schools near the low end get unfairly boosted.

Finally, the statistical indicators are equally misleading. I can obtain an R^2 of 1.0 just by including indicators I[is COLLEGE_NAME] for each college. While that might not give you significance, the point is that getting good prediction is meaningless.

I think what they really want is to restrict to predictors about the students. So, given that you're a straight A student with a 2400 SAT score, what would you expect to make coming out of each school? This at least tells me something about the added value to me of going to a certain school. (This approach is still prone to bias, but in the opposite direction -- there's a chance that the straight A student with a 2400 SAT score going to community college may have been smart but unmotivated, which might correlate with lower salary.)

Edit: Here's another concern. They're claiming to have a model for "expected" earnings:

earnings = A * (college covariates) + b + error

but they can't distinguish between model error (i.e., error because their model is misspecified) vs. the school variation that they are trying to capture.

Re: The Economist's US college rankings

#50
post #42

The concept of studying in Higher Education for more opportunities, job stability, and income during one's lifetime is not to be dismissed. That said, if the predominant value of education is in the pursuit of money, then I think using the Brookings Institute model (which The Economist references) that includes two-year and vocational education entities is a much more pragmatic and practical approach. That is, if mon…

Even if the predominant value of education is the pursuit of money, the Economist still has the more useful model. It allows you to differentiate between schools whose graduates make money because they are full of people who are going to try to make money, and schools that make money because the school brings something to the table that helps its graduates above other options. Look at CalTech for example. It does wel…

After reading through your response, I believe you missed my point. What I was referring to is that for a large population of potential students - those who wish to simply make more than if they do not go to a higher education program - going to a two year or vocational path school is exceptionally smart. Leaving that out of consideration is...not smart...highly biased...as in, how many readers of The Economist would consider sending their kid to become a diesel mechanic?

From the research I've absorbed over the years, students that can afford to go to prestige universities often come from well-to-do, college educated families - these are high indicators of future success. For a much larger swath of the population that is trying to advance their stake in life, they are first-generation students, and often not well-served by taking on debt and attending a large University environment. Thus, many Universities are, practically speaking, very bad at ROI for a large contingent of students who simply want to make more money - vocational training? An excellent prospect.

What remains to be seen is how much more earning potential there is in professions that require vocational training to be licensed or successful (i.e. welding, machining, air traffic control, plumbing, electrical contracting) as the generation currently working retires / dies from the workforce, thereby spiking demand, and in fields where a "traditional" University degree are, well, useless.

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