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China to begin two-child policy

bbc.co.uk

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Re: China to begin two-child policy

#201

Post by moistgorilla »

matt-attack wrote: post #190
nsxwolf wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, forced abortions and drownings of infants are sometimes necessary in some cultures. We shouldn't judge.

Couldn't the argument be made that the parents, in effect, did it to their own child? They knew the law and flaunted it. Not saying the law is just, but the parents did it to themselves.

> Couldn't the argument be made that the parents, in effect, did it to their own child

No, it couldn't. The person responsible for killing the child is the person that enforces the law and the person that created the law.

Re: China to begin two-child policy

#202

Post by kyllo »

sethbannon wrote: post #56

From the article "All couples will now be allowed to have two children". So it seems China isn't so much ending its one-child policy, as augmenting it by one to a two-child policy. This means the brutal and cruel enforcement will continue, only it will kick in at the third child instead of at the second.

Agreed, but it should also be noted that in practice, families that want to have more than two children are quite rare in urban China today, as they are in most developed countries. Meanwhile, rural families in China have been allowed to have two or more children (depending on a few rules) for several years already.

Re: China to begin two-child policy

#203

Post by moistgorilla »

kailuowang wrote: post #165
zero_iq wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The policy itself isn't cruel or brutal, but the enforcement can be terrible. Brutal and cruel acts include: * Killing of child immediately after birth * Killing of child whilst being born, e.g. in birth canal during birth * Termination of pregnancy as late as 8.5 months * Forced abortions (incorporating kidnapping and assault) All of these things have happened routinely as part of enforcement of the "one child" poli…

Just to make it clear, these types of enforcement are not norms. The law never suggested such enforcement. The law is that you get a financial fine if you have more than one child, that's it. It's actually against the law to force any kind of abortion. That being said, in some rural area, some officials maybe so greedy to make achievement for their "career" that they "enforce" this policy by breaking the law. Some of…

> Just to make it clear, these types of enforcement are not norms

Back up your statement with a citation please. Considering that they explicitly made forced abortions of these kinds illegal (although this is hardly enforced) implies that it was a big enough problem the government needed to step in.

Re: China to begin two-child policy

#204

Post by netcan »

China's 1 child policy (now 2 child, I guess) is a difficult to fully form an opinion on.

On one hand, "population crisis" is something a lot of people are concerned about^ and the policy was a direct and practical way of tackling it. On the other, it is unmistakably totalitarian.

Going to 2 is a strange choice. It's just as totalitarian, but probably has a fairly negligible effect on average fertility rate. I guess they don't see

^On a tangent, I don't totally buy population crisis and judging from how rarely I hear it mentioned these days I think I'm not alone. There is obviously some natural limit on human population, but I don't think we're near it.

The fact that we hear less concern about it is says something interesting about the zeitgeist. I think people believe in technological progress more in 2015 than they have since the space age and nuclear age of 50 years ago, maybe more than ever. At our current rate (ignoring the projected gradual reduction) we'll double every 65 years. I can certainly see us absorbing doubling population density in that time considering all the empty oceans, deserts, the potential for landless food productions, megacities and all that jazz. I mean, If the US & Australia went to the population densities of Germany and France (moderately dense with quite a lot of open spaces), we would be good for another 100 years.

Basically, I think we have the space.

Re: China to begin two-child policy

#205

Post by fsloth »

laichzeit0 wrote: post #26
s_dev wrote: post #9

Overpopulation is an interesting problem, it exponentially affects every other problem we have -- some balance will have to be found between ultimately telling people they can't kids or maintaining that those people have autonomy over their own lives and can make such a decision. I don't know what the solution is - perhaps making the developing world developed as fast as possible.

You mean like the problem of telling people they can't just drive cars or own firearms and need to meet some competence criteria first, i.e. licensing? If so, I totally support the idea of licensing human breeding.

"If so, I totally support the idea of licensing human breeding."

In the context of America this was already tried

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics_in_the_United_States#...

Sterilization and licensing are the exactly same mechanism - the state holds veto right over who gets to procreate.

Re: China to begin two-child policy

#206

Post by c0achmcguirk »

gnaritas wrote: post #159
code4life wrote: post #156

"A Christian Manifesto" by Francis A. Schaeffer gives a reason why. Our creator inspires freedom and love. When we follow him we seek to spread freedom to not only ourselves but to others as well. A population willingly adopting the new testament Biblical principles will spread freedom willingly. The humanist world view on the other hand has no moral absolutes and must enforce the popular or elected rules onto the ma…

> America has been slowly transitioning from a Bible believing nation to a humanist world view. America has been slowly transitioning from a superstitious nation to a more rational one. Fixed that for you. > The humanist world view on the other hand has no moral absolutes and must enforce the popular or elected rules onto the majority by force. No one has moral absolutes, they do not exist except in the minds of thos…

> America has been slowly transitioning from a superstitious nation to a more rational one.

lulz

Rationality requires laws of logic--which do not exist in a humanistic, materialistic world.

Tell me, can you stub your toe on the law of non-contradiction? No? How does it exist then?

Re: China to begin two-child policy

#207

Post by MC7447a »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #157
MC7447a wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Overpopulation is a non-problem. Fertility has fallow to near- or below-replacement rate everywhere in the world, except Afrika (which will likely follow in the next decades.) A nice talk from Hans Rosling on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eA5BM7CE5-8

> "Fertility has fallow to near- or below-replacement rate everywhere in the world" What do you expect is causing this? Isn't a large part of the reason for this due to changes in society rather than a synchronised biological trend? For example, couples choosing to have children later, if at all. If the reasons are social rather than biological, then there's no reason why birth rates (I'm using the term birth rates a…

> What do you expect is causing this?

- enormous reduction in child mortality - increased female emancipation and economic opportunities - (direct and opportunity) costs of child-raising becomes relatively larger when societies get richer

I don't expect any of those trends to reverse itself

> If the reasons are social rather than biological, then there's no reason why birth rates can't increase in the future.

Sure, and there's no reason why the worldwide decrease cant' accelerate further either. The only question is, why do you think some scenario is more likely than the other?

> The view that overpopulation is a non-problem seems to be based on wishful thinking and/or short-sighted analysis.

To me the view that population increase is/will be some huge problem seems to be continuously redressing the Malthusian nonsense that's been wrong for over 2 centuries

Re: China to begin two-child policy

#208

Post by grecy »

moistgorilla wrote: post #201
matt-attack wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't the argument be made that the parents, in effect, did it to their own child? They knew the law and flaunted it. Not saying the law is just, but the parents did it to themselves.

> Couldn't the argument be made that the parents, in effect, did it to their own child No, it couldn't. The person responsible for killing the child is the person that enforces the law and the person that created the law.

Iteresting.

It follows then the person that kills a death row inmate is responsible for their death, not the inmate for committing a crime in the first place.

Re: China to begin two-child policy

#209

Post by [deleted] »

grecy wrote: post #208
moistgorilla wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Couldn't the argument be made that the parents, in effect, did it to their own child No, it couldn't. The person responsible for killing the child is the person that enforces the law and the person that created the law.

Iteresting. It follows then the person that kills a death row inmate is responsible for their death, not the inmate for committing a crime in the first place.

[deleted]

Re: China to begin two-child policy

#210

Post by pjungwir »

kailuowang wrote: post #165
zero_iq wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The policy itself isn't cruel or brutal, but the enforcement can be terrible. Brutal and cruel acts include: * Killing of child immediately after birth * Killing of child whilst being born, e.g. in birth canal during birth * Termination of pregnancy as late as 8.5 months * Forced abortions (incorporating kidnapping and assault) All of these things have happened routinely as part of enforcement of the "one child" poli…

Just to make it clear, these types of enforcement are not norms. The law never suggested such enforcement. The law is that you get a financial fine if you have more than one child, that's it. It's actually against the law to force any kind of abortion. That being said, in some rural area, some officials maybe so greedy to make achievement for their "career" that they "enforce" this policy by breaking the law. Some of…

> in some rural area

I spent a summer in Beijing in 1998 and knew a young lady whose unborn baby was forcibly killed. So I don't buy "in some rural area".

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