Kill the laws that keep car dealers in business • Hacker News Board

Re: Kill the laws that keep car dealers in business

#241

Post by venning » Wed, Oct 28, 2015, 5:40 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #239

venning wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. As an avid "car guy" and a student of regulation, I cannot think of any reason for car dealers, as a whole, to be protected in the long-term. I am, however, perplexed with how we should address the possibility of established manufacturers attempting to cannibalize the sales of their most profitable franchises by building neighboring dealerships with their considerable capital. I believe the California model…

Pick a model - say, Chevrolet. Is there anywhere within the LA basin that isn't already within 10 miles of a Chevy dealership? Does this rule leave the manufacturer any place to be in a place like LA?

This is why I am perplexed.

Re: Kill the laws that keep car dealers in business

#242

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Oct 28, 2015, 5:41 PM UTC

[deleted]

Re: Kill the laws that keep car dealers in business

#243

Post by venning » Wed, Oct 28, 2015, 5:43 PM UTC

logfromblammo wrote: post #240

gnoway wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't. It's aggravating. https://news.ycombinator.com/formatdoc

- You can fake it. - Start with a blank line. - Indent each subsequent line with two spaces. - Use hyphens as your bullet. - Lines that are too long will cause horizontal scroll, so break them manually.

Thank you.

Re: Kill the laws that keep car dealers in business

#244

Post by newjersey » Wed, Oct 28, 2015, 5:44 PM UTC

venning wrote: post #179

newjersey wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is one thing to provide short-term support for carriage drivers and ship cargo loaders when mechanization renders their jobs useless. It is a different matter when existing big businesses stand in the way of progress. Would you support laws that would slow down the growth of digital cameras in the late nineties and early noughties so Kodak could continue to sell celluloid? I bet a lot of people were affected by th…

The interesting thing about the particular examples in this thread--local taxi companies, hotel franchises, dealer franchises--is that none of them are in fact "big businesses". If Uber and AirBnB and Tesla succeed, they will all be considerably larger than any other player in those spaces. They will be the big businesses. Personally, I have no interest in protecting businesses. I have an interest in protecting compe…

I'd argue that dealership model does not necessarily promote competition. If I want a Ford Focus, Ford still dictates what kind of car I get. Sure, the dealership may try to make a few hundred dollars by (unnecessarily) adding "value" to the car with floor mats and halogen lamps but what kind of car I get and at what price is a decision Ford makes.

The problem I have with the dealerships is that they are saying Tesla can't sell cars directly. This is incredibly stupid. Sure, you could say Ford can't set up a store because that'd be like having a Starbucks corporate store right next door to a franchise they authorized. However, if I wanted to create New Jersey's Best Coffee (don't buy my coffee, although there is Best in the name it will be horrible) I should be able to open my own coffee shop with no regard to whatever agreements there have been about coffee shops before. I mean it is one thing to say that my coffee shop should meet health safety requirements (such as not lacing my coffee with poison) and other sensible requirements such as not selling anything with the label "USDA Organic" unless it is USDA Organic.

> I just also feel for the individuals who often are so vigorously disrupted.

Are you talking about the employees? I feel for the Rite Aid and Duane Reade employees more than I feel for the car salespeople. I honestly believe that successful car salespeople have the qualities that will help them land on their feet in any situation. So they will be alright. We will eventually have to seriously discuss the idea of a universal basic income but that is for another conversation.

Re: Kill the laws that keep car dealers in business

#245

Post by mikeash » Wed, Oct 28, 2015, 5:44 PM UTC

jessaustin wrote: post #166

joosters wrote: post #61

"Don’t ever take a fence down until you know the reason why it was put up" You can't write a balanced article on car dealerships without researching why these laws were enacted in the first place. So many people here just assume "oh, it's because of greed" - but perhaps you should spend a short time first of all investigating why these laws were created and the problems they were trying to solve. Likewise, you can't…

Don't ever take a fence down... Conservatism is fine as mental shortcuts go, but we shouldn't take every mental shortcut available. We don't actually have to worry about shit that supposedly happened a hundred years ago, if we take the time to look at what's going on now. Right now , there are customers who want to buy, and producers who want to sell. Relaxing dealer requirements would allow those beneficial transact…

Why is a time limit on a law and the vast uncertainty that would surround it as people try to figure out if it will be extended better than just doing your research and finding out reasoning behind these laws when they were enacted?

It's not like the information is unavailable. You don't have to mount an expedition to the Himalayas or anything. Just go look it up. You may well find that you still think these laws are bad and should go. In that case, you can rest assured in the knowledge that you now understand the issues better, and you're better prepared to argue your case.

Arguing that you should know why something was created before you remove it is actually the opposite of a mental shortcut. It's saying that you should do your homework before you make changes.

Re: Kill the laws that keep car dealers in business

#246

Post by mikeash » Wed, Oct 28, 2015, 5:47 PM UTC

Rumford wrote: post #169

braythwayt wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“The State has no right to _____.” These arguments are rife in US political discourse, but as an outsider with no emotional investment in the idea of guarding against the dreaded tyranny of kings... I note that such arguments always avoid addressing the underlying problem. In your case, there is a fence in your kitchen, and there you are tearing it down without pausing even for a moment to ask why it is there. Was th…

Point taken, and I'm glad you see the merit in the discussion about what things the state has any right to do. After all, sometimes trespassing is the right thing to do. I certainly hope the fire department doesn't wait to be invited if they notice my house is burning down! I guess I'm just extremely certain that after studying the lineage of a ban like this, one would discover that no, it really isn't necessary. May…

I think you're right that these laws aren't necessary. But I still think it's important to understand them before declaring them to be such. I have a hard time understanding how you can declare yourself to be "extremely certain" of something before you've gone out and obtained the information. It's supposed to be the other way around!

Re: Kill the laws that keep car dealers in business

#247

Post by mikeash » Wed, Oct 28, 2015, 5:52 PM UTC

Amezarak wrote: post #148

jpfr wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Europe, only used cars are sold directly off the parking lot or showroom of the dealer. Normally, you choose the options (color, engine options, leather seats, ..) and the car is built for you. You can pick it up some weeks/months later. Manufacturers of high-priced cars may invite you to pick up the car at the plant when it comes off the line. They have a special "experience" designed around that.

> Normally, you choose the options (color, engine options, leather seats, ..) and the car is built for you. You can pick it up some weeks/months later. Both times I bought a new car, it was because my previous car had been totaled. This would hugely complicate my day-to-day logistics. Is there no way to get a normal car quickly, the same day?

You're always going to pay a premium for getting something fast. For an expensive item like a car, that premium is going to be huge.

Sometimes it happens that you need a car immediately. That doesn't mean that you need to buy a car immediately. There are other options.

Imagine if your house burned down. You need housing right away. Are you going to say, "I need to buy a new house today"? Of course not. It's a huge purchase that requires a great deal of research and thought. In the unlikely event that you can find something you can move into immediately, you'll have extremely restricted choices and probably pay way more than you needed to. Instead, you'll find a hotel, maybe move into a short-term apartment, and take the time you need to find a house to buy.

Cars aren't nearly as expensive as houses (usually) but they're still expensive enough that the same ideas apply. You're going to own this thing for years, you can take a some time to get it right when buying it, even if you need something immediately.

Re: Kill the laws that keep car dealers in business

#248

Post by fineman » Wed, Oct 28, 2015, 5:52 PM UTC

grandalf wrote: post #185

JoshTriplett wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Car dealers are among the biggest "small business owner" donors to political campaigns in the US. The National Auto Dealers Association is a big part of most dealers' lives, and they know who is buttering their bread. Which makes me wonder how much it would change the US political landscape to eliminate the massive protections granted to car dealerships.

> eliminate the massive protections It would certainly change things a lot, but it would have to happen through the same democratic process that put the protections there in the first place.

That never works. You'd need those who benefit from the protectionism to stop lobbying. The issue is that it never was democratic, it was graft that made these regulations and it's graft that keeps them going.

The way to get rid of regulatory capture is to make it impossible to enforce and let the leeches die.

Uber may not win, but Taxi companies will die.

Re: Kill the laws that keep car dealers in business

#249

Post by fineman » Wed, Oct 28, 2015, 5:55 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #218

venning wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We often moan about the taxi industry, the hotel industry, or the dealer associations but, in doing so, we miss something very important. The players in that industry often existed for years or decades in a state of government-backed protection without realizing it . Taxi drivers didn't necessarily lobby for market restrictions; they took advantage of the oligopoly, sure, but not necessarily consciously. If you live…

Some fences need to remain. Take barbers/hairdressers, for instance. It turns out that a barbershop can be a great place for spreading head lice. You want your barber/hairdresser to be trained to prevent that. That's part of what their licensing is about. So, are there any aspects of being a car dealer that are worthwhile fences? Offhand, I can't think of any, but that doesn't mean there are none.

How many hours does that take?

Why does it take so long and yet being a waiter requires no (government) training at all?

Re: Kill the laws that keep car dealers in business

#250

Post by marssaxman » Wed, Oct 28, 2015, 5:57 PM UTC

alkonaut wrote: post #56

venning wrote: post #37

I paused my software development career to sell cars for a year. I sold cars at two different Honda dealerships, both owned by Fortune 500 companies in, what I believe is, the densest single market for Hondas in the US (Metro DC). There's a couple things missing from the situation as described by the author. First, dealerships don't really make that much of a profit on new car sales. At least not Honda dealers. Used…

> In order to sell a car, you have to have a car on your lot. I don't understand the above: you mean people buy new (unused) cars from dealers, "off the shelf"? Aren't most new cars custom? Are US customers more impatient, so that in order to close a sale you need to have the various options pre-built, so that people don't have to wait four months for their new car to be built? I have rarely seen a new car sitting at…

Buying a car but having to wait four months to actually get it sounds like the kind of horror story people used to tell when I was a kid about the terrible economic conditions in the Soviet Union. No, in the US people pretty much just go shopping, pick out a car, buy it, and drive it home. I know one guy who ordered a car custom and had to wait for it, but he is really into cars and is the sort of person who cultivates a specific and unusual aesthetic in everything he owns, so nobody was surprised that he would go to unusual lengths to get a particular vehicle.