Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#31

Post by quaunaut » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 4:56 PM UTC

wh-uws wrote: post #26

throwaway13337 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a software developer in the modern world (web, mobile) has little to do with computer science. These skills can be taught but aren't in most modern universities. Mostly, there is argument that university is not vocational training. At the same time, most people implicitly feel the need to go to university to get a job. These developer boot camps create a new path. It's a good thing.

"Being a software developer in the modern world... has little to do with computer science." Is a categorical falsehood that has cost me alot of time and money. There is not one top tier technology company software team that you can get on without having a strong grasp of at least the basic fundamentals of CS (namely data structures, algorithms, and some college level math.) You will ALWAYS get passed on if you only f…

> There is not one top tier technology company software team that you can get on without having a strong grasp of at least the basic fundamentals of CS (namely data structures, algorithms, and some college level math.)

This just in: Getting on a top tier team requires being top tier.

This doesn't mean you can't teach for the rest of the industry, nor does it mean you can't go into the top tier work later. Just the path to top tier changes, from college to having solid experience and code out there. This can come from blog posts, open source, or simply working on hard problems at whatever gig you can get.

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#32

Post by jypepin » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 4:58 PM UTC

laveur wrote: post #18

I am skeptical of "Developer Boot Camps". I think they over promise people that they will be skilled developers when they are done. If you go in with a degree in Computer Science or something that teaches you how to program properly sure you will probably be able to get a job. But the idea to take someone that has never been a programmer and make them suitable for a job is laughable to me. It does a disservice to eve…

I totally understand the skepticism and I think it's a long, deep debate between coding vs computer science.

I'm from Dev Bootcamp and barely knew anything before participating. I had multiple good job offers a week after "graduating" and have always been performing well, obviously according to what was expected when I finished. I was able to do useful stuff in our rails app since the first week, and although I needed a lot of mentorship I still think I was useful.

I think what's important is to be realistic on expectations you have on bootcamp. You won't understand how things work after 3 months, but you will definitely know enough to get a job as a junior, and be able to continue learning.

After I landed my first job, I continued to take some online classes to know more CS stuff, learn basic algorithms, etc. and now that I've been working for almost 3 years (really hard) I feel like I know better than a new grad getting out of school. I didn't when I started working obviously, but I think that those past 3 years were way more valuable in every single aspect than if I had spent 3 years in College studying CS.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say you shouldn't go to school or anything, but there is definitely a value in bootcamps, especially for people (like me) who already spent 3-4 years in College but want to make a change. I would have never been able to become an engineer without a bootcamp, because I couldn't afford another bachelor's (and tbh, didn't have the motivation for it anyways).

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#33

Post by eropple » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 4:58 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #24

throwaway13337 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a software developer in the modern world (web, mobile) has little to do with computer science. These skills can be taught but aren't in most modern universities. Mostly, there is argument that university is not vocational training. At the same time, most people implicitly feel the need to go to university to get a job. These developer boot camps create a new path. It's a good thing.

Excellent point. If you want to waste 4-6 years of your life on theory, go to college. Bootcamp it or learn yourself if you want to spend 6-18 months learning and then jump into a junior position to get real experience (and get paid for it). EDIT: See my post further down for clarification on this idea. I shot this comment from the hip a bit too fast.

I don't want to rip on you, because I think you're a pretty sharp dude from your posting here, but if you think theory is a waste, I really question what sorts of Actually Hard Problems you've had to tackle. :/

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#34

Post by nlawalker » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 4:59 PM UTC

wh-uws wrote: post #26

throwaway13337 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a software developer in the modern world (web, mobile) has little to do with computer science. These skills can be taught but aren't in most modern universities. Mostly, there is argument that university is not vocational training. At the same time, most people implicitly feel the need to go to university to get a job. These developer boot camps create a new path. It's a good thing.

"Being a software developer in the modern world... has little to do with computer science." Is a categorical falsehood that has cost me alot of time and money. There is not one top tier technology company software team that you can get on without having a strong grasp of at least the basic fundamentals of CS (namely data structures, algorithms, and some college level math.) You will ALWAYS get passed on if you only f…

What's interesting to me is that every time this argument comes up, the argument of the party stating that fundamental CS skills are not required generally revolves around the work, and the argument of the opposing party generally revolves around the interview.

>> not one team... you can get on

>> passed on

Is the problem that you can't join the team without fundamental skills, or that you can't do the work?

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#35

Post by Hortinstein » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 4:59 PM UTC

qntty wrote: post #2

Tuition for the 12-week course in Android development, which was designed by Google's developer training team, is $13,500. The full-time course will be offered in early 2016 at General Assembly's flagship offices in New York and San Francisco and then spread to its 14 locations around the world.

meanwhile I am paying ~$8,000 for a full computer science masters from GA Tech (OMSCS). Different class of education, but I feel like I am getting a better deal.

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#36

Post by segmondy » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 4:59 PM UTC

laveur wrote: post #18

I am skeptical of "Developer Boot Camps". I think they over promise people that they will be skilled developers when they are done. If you go in with a degree in Computer Science or something that teaches you how to program properly sure you will probably be able to get a job. But the idea to take someone that has never been a programmer and make them suitable for a job is laughable to me. It does a disservice to eve…

Stop it. I think it's really an uncomfortable feeling for plenty of us that someone can learn to program in a few months. It makes plenty of people in the industry free inadequate and I see this argument of yours repeated over and over. It doesn't stand.

A developer and a computer scientist are two different things.

There are awesome developers who are terrible computer scientists. They can build a great website/small web application in RoR or Django, fast and get the job done. The site will never scale tho.

There are awesome computer scientists who can't build a great web app but can scale the hell out of it.

Most companies want developers, not computer scientist. You might get asked all sorts of questions about algorithms ^& data structures, but in reality day to day problem is CRUD.

Now, I would imagine Google would want more of those CS types than developer types...

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#37

Post by ken47 » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 5:00 PM UTC

laveur wrote: post #18

I am skeptical of "Developer Boot Camps". I think they over promise people that they will be skilled developers when they are done. If you go in with a degree in Computer Science or something that teaches you how to program properly sure you will probably be able to get a job. But the idea to take someone that has never been a programmer and make them suitable for a job is laughable to me. It does a disservice to eve…

Hypothetical question, who would you rather have as a software engineer on your team: the MIT stats grad with little to no programming background aside from a bootcamp or the average CS grad from the average Uni?

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#38

Post by sbov » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 5:00 PM UTC

laveur wrote: post #18

I am skeptical of "Developer Boot Camps". I think they over promise people that they will be skilled developers when they are done. If you go in with a degree in Computer Science or something that teaches you how to program properly sure you will probably be able to get a job. But the idea to take someone that has never been a programmer and make them suitable for a job is laughable to me. It does a disservice to eve…

I found that CS theory was great, once I had the practical experience to recognize how to use it.

In a sense I feel like we do things backwards. You should work in industry for a couple years, then learn the theory you learn when getting a CS degree. The software development career path isn't setup like this now, but if it were, I feel like we would all be better off.

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#39

Post by segmondy » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 5:01 PM UTC

wh-uws wrote: post #26

throwaway13337 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a software developer in the modern world (web, mobile) has little to do with computer science. These skills can be taught but aren't in most modern universities. Mostly, there is argument that university is not vocational training. At the same time, most people implicitly feel the need to go to university to get a job. These developer boot camps create a new path. It's a good thing.

"Being a software developer in the modern world... has little to do with computer science." Is a categorical falsehood that has cost me alot of time and money. There is not one top tier technology company software team that you can get on without having a strong grasp of at least the basic fundamentals of CS (namely data structures, algorithms, and some college level math.) You will ALWAYS get passed on if you only f…

There are lots of successful profitable companies making lots of money who are not "top tier tech companies". They still have software built for them by developers without CS knowledge.

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#40

Post by toomuchtodo » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 5:03 PM UTC

eropple wrote: post #33

toomuchtodo wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excellent point. If you want to waste 4-6 years of your life on theory, go to college. Bootcamp it or learn yourself if you want to spend 6-18 months learning and then jump into a junior position to get real experience (and get paid for it). EDIT: See my post further down for clarification on this idea. I shot this comment from the hip a bit too fast.

I don't want to rip on you, because I think you're a pretty sharp dude from your posting here, but if you think theory is a waste, I really question what sorts of Actually Hard Problems you've had to tackle. :/

Thanks for the kind words!

I'm a high school dropout and have started/ran/sold a startup, managed a division for a well-regarded consulting firm, and worked on data taking for a detector at the LHC. Perhaps the problem is that I minimize the amount of effort that goes into being autodidactic (determine the problem, determine what information and skills are needed to solve the problem, acquire said information/skills, execute, repeat).

Let me correct/clarify my above post: Theory isn't a waste, per se. Is it best to spend a significant amount of time front loading knowledge one may not need? And paying a substantial premium for that experience? That's my problem with the college experience for tech professionals.

I'm not a huge fan of bootcamps, but I do believe there is much to be gained by Google's efforts here. There is value we've lost in the old apprenticeship system, and I hope to see it revived over time (I owe my skill and career progression to the luck of finding quality mentors along my way).

There are hard problems I want to solve that I want to have the resources (mostly time) to solve. College would not teach my those skills, but me trying to solve those problems are lessons in themselves.