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How the war on drugs creates violence

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Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#81

Post by user_0001 »

shocks wrote: post #28
awjr wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very valid point. I don't see the UK government however changing their approach. Treating addiction as a disease just enables the government to vilify users. Many low-level heroin/cocaine users just lead normal lives. As do many low-level wine users. The only way I see this changing is when it financially makes sense. Taking Colorado as a model, the UK could get in the region of £400million a year in tax be…

Thanks. Do you know where I can find some numbers on this? It's something I've always wondered. We're told by the media that 90% of heroin addicts are on the street stealing to maintain their habit - but I wouldn't be surprised if 90% of heroin addicts appear to have these "normal" lives.

Depends how you define "addict". As any heroin user? Someone whose whole life is based around the drug? Something else?

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#82

Post by user_0001 »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #61
cubano wrote: post #44

I just don't think many people realize just how much legal corporate and government "business" is created by the insane war on drugs, and I am convinced this is the reason why it continues. Like I mentioned before, I just spent 6 months in the deep bowels of the criminal justice system for drug possession here in Florida, and those observations have shaped this view. The cops, the judges, the lawyers on both sides (w…

You are absolutely right, and perhaps the most under reported effect of the war on any vice is that vice enforcement becomes just as lucrative. It's easier to bust someone for possession than reckless driving, assault, you know, things that have to be verified at the time of offense. It's not that the police, prosecutors, prison owners or lawmakers are bad people, they just deal with corrosive incentives. Just like d…

It is also very corrupting work (drug police). Of the handful of people I "know" who got busted, not one was charged with the full amount of drugs nor cash they were arrested with (when it was worthwhile amounts)

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#83

Post by user_0001 »

jacquesm wrote: post #36
TeMPOraL wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yvain's classic on disease/failure of personality is worth bringing up[0]. Also, his more recent take on (US) attitude towards treating heroin addicts[1]. The ending paragraph of [1] works as a great TL;DR: "Society is fixed, biology is mutable. People have tried everything to fix drug abuse. Being harsh and sending drug users to jail. Being nice and sending them to nice treatment centers that focus on rehabilitation…

"Experiments have shown rats to forgo food to the point of starvation in order to work for brain stimulation or intravenous cocaine when both food and stimulation are offered concurrently for a limited time each day." From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_stimulation_reward

Rats imprisoned in a cage in a laboratory with no chance of escape prefer to numb them selves with non-stop IV high quality cocaine where possible.

So would I probably.

Rats living freely in their natural habit - probably different story

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#84

Post by Lawtonfogle »

jamespo wrote: post #70
sixQuarks wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the crux of the problem is your line of thinking. The government cannot and should not replace personal responsibility. Your argument would mean that no one could drive a car or drink alcohol. Why are drugs different?

drugs aren't different to alcohol, but I'm sure you can appreciate they are different to cars

Temporarily and in places without great public transport. Once automated cars become common place, the argument will hold for choosing to manually drive.

That being said, I've seen a lot of people who think it will eventually become illegal to manually drive, at least on crowded public roads within large cities.

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#85

Post by dragonwriter »

lighthawk wrote: post #53
sixQuarks wrote: post #48

Besides all of the stated reasons to legalize/decriminalize, I think just as important is personal liberty. I should be free to experiment with my own consciousness (so long as it does not impede on the rights of others) - how much more personal can you get? For the government to impede on this is unconscionable (pun intended).

> so long as it does not impede on the rights of others This is really the crux of the problem. How do you suggest that you legalize all drugs and then keep people on those drugs from harming others? Public safety has a hard enough time without having to deal with some unknown number of additional people that would try drugs are harm themselves or others if those drugs were legal.

> How do you suggest that you legalize all drugs and then keep people on those drugs from harming others?

Illegalizing drugs doesn't keep people on those drugs from harming others; in general, government policy can't absolutely prevent any class of unconsented harms, what it can provide accountability and compensatory mechanism and do things to mitigate (or increase!) the quantity of such harms. And I think the evidence is pretty clear that prohibition, as it has been attempted with alcohol and many other drugs, does quite a bit to increase harms inflicted on others related to the use of and market for the prohibited drugs. A better policy is needed, but its not reasonable to expect that that policy will "keep people on those drugs from harming others".

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#86

Post by roflchoppa »

durzagott wrote: post #22
inDigiNeous wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Many of the medicine that we label illegal, is from the nature, like cannabis. For that purpose also, we should regulate them, so that people would have better and more controlled access, and not have to figure out healing themselves and caught addicted because they have no legal way to get help. Reality is there are many people who do not trust the medical companies and their "medicine", and are looking for…

"Nobody is denying cannabis is not addictive, it is, very" Can I get a source on that? It flies in the face of conventional wisdom.

> People buy too much, use too much

ill source this from myself. both are false statements.

420 blz it

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#87

Post by wz1000 »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #50
wz1000 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because the stuff used as illegal drugs is actually dangerous to health Recreational drugs are not inherently any more dangerous than the chemicals produced for medicinal use. They are the same kind of thing, recreational drugs just happen to be used for, well, recreation. Some recreational chemicals are even less dangerous than drugs you can get OTC. For example, LSD has a stellar safety record. There are no recor…

Recreational drugs typically get overused, to the point of toxicity. Just do a 'ride-along' with your emergency room nurse friend any weekend evening, and keep count of overdose cases - prescribed vs recreational.

The parent commenter was implying that the public wouldn't stand for having recreational drugs being manufactured by regular pharm companies, because they were somehow more dangerous. I pointed out that pharm companies already manufacture dangerous chemicals, that include these recreational drugs.

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#88

Post by JoeAltmaier »

avn2109 wrote: post #65
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recreational drugs typically get overused, to the point of toxicity. Just do a 'ride-along' with your emergency room nurse friend any weekend evening, and keep count of overdose cases - prescribed vs recreational.

Maybe that's because the recreational drug doesn't come with an MSDS/safe use documentation, because it was bought on the street.

Or perhaps because its recreational, and more fun is better, folks have no self control. They are called 'addictive' for a reason.

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#89

Post by pakled_engineer »

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #43
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #12

I'm a libertarian, so I'm already sold on legalization. Count me in. As such, hopefully I can quibble with the text a bit. "Ceasing this hypocritical practice by releasing nonviolent offenders is morally urgent." Yeah, not so much. Yes, there is a severe moral problem here, but please do not make moral arguments! It's folks with moral arguments riding around on high horses that got us into this mess. Instead, argue f…

I generally agree with your major thesis which is that the laws need to be consistent and fair. Clearly the majority of Americans see no harm in an occasional toke, and the majority indeed have tried MJ. That in itself argues MJ should be made legal. The one argument that the police might make against legalization is that it deprives them of a useful tool -- an immoral tool, but nonetheless vital -- for getting scumb…

They do this already with tax evasion laws or they just keep throwing charges at gangsters to get them off the streets, like here where they use confidential informants to claim somebody did something then lock them up for years pending trial which is later dismissed. They also bust them on petty driving infractions all the time then wait for them to pay with unlaundered money, which opens the tax evasion case. When police and the state want to make your life hell they can easily do that without drug charges.

The real problem with the black market is it's wide open to robbery. Criminals can't do armed escorts for their product and cash or turn to police for protection so they get violently jacked by anybody with a gun. There's no insurance or legal recourse so their only method of compensation is more violence. Nobody jacks beer trucks anymore because the operator can phone police making such a robbery too risky, and they have insurance, so the beer company doesn't have to seek compensation by shooting up their rivals company.

As it stands right now the first thing a violent felon does upon release is rob a drug delivery driver, the black market is their ATM.

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#90

Post by demallien »

awjr wrote: post #2

I've pretty much come down on the side of prohibition is bad. Yes hard drugs destroy lives, but many many many more are destroyed by socially acceptable drugs like alcohol and nicotine. We live within societies where the way we control substances creates a huge social and financial cost. We'd be better off legalising every drug and creating a social framework within which these drugs can be taxed, consumed safely, an…

Maybe I'm being obtuse, but wouldn't that be an argument for prohibition? As in, drugs that aren't prohibited cause much more harm than those that are?
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