How the war on drugs creates violence • Hacker News Board

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#41

Post by talmand » Wed, Oct 21, 2015, 1:41 PM UTC

Synaesthesia wrote: post #34

fsloth wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea if gangsters partake in lobbying but I find it hard to believe it would be the main cause for the continuing policies. Some hold the view that the war on drugs is mainly ideological. Chomsky has quite a critical view of the matter. E.g. "So there are two possibilities: Either those conducting the Drug War are lunatics, or they have another purpose." http://hightimes.com/read/high-times-interview-noam-c…

What's interesting is that the CIA has been proven to be involved in the drug trade, and they need untraceable money for covert operations quite frequently. Also this trade is so lucrative, that massive banks are quite involved in it too. What's more, large corporations in the US are py directly involve in selling dangerous narcotics around the world, it's called to tobacco and it's the most lethal drug sold in the w…

In those cases, a government destroying drug crops is not about saving lives, it's about money. Illegal drug cartels do not pay taxes, tobacco plantations in Virginia do.

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#42

Post by bluedino » Wed, Oct 21, 2015, 1:44 PM UTC

awjr wrote: post #5

shocks wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> users supported This is the biggest thing, IMO. Legalising drugs isn't about getting control of distrubution and profits, it's more about changing societies view on drugs. We need to stop treating these people as addicts that need to be swept under the rug. We need to treat them as they are - human beings with a disease/illness for which they need help. How can they turn to us for help if we chuck them in prison fo…

This is a very valid point. I don't see the UK government however changing their approach. Treating addiction as a disease just enables the government to vilify users. Many low-level heroin/cocaine users just lead normal lives. As do many low-level wine users. The only way I see this changing is when it financially makes sense. Taking Colorado as a model, the UK could get in the region of £400million a year in tax be…

>> Many low-level heroin/cocaine users just lead normal lives. As do many low-level wine users.

This is a pretty ridiculous comparison

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#43

Post by blisterpeanuts » Wed, Oct 21, 2015, 1:46 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #12

I'm a libertarian, so I'm already sold on legalization. Count me in. As such, hopefully I can quibble with the text a bit. "Ceasing this hypocritical practice by releasing nonviolent offenders is morally urgent." Yeah, not so much. Yes, there is a severe moral problem here, but please do not make moral arguments! It's folks with moral arguments riding around on high horses that got us into this mess. Instead, argue f…

I generally agree with your major thesis which is that the laws need to be consistent and fair. Clearly the majority of Americans see no harm in an occasional toke, and the majority indeed have tried MJ. That in itself argues MJ should be made legal.

The one argument that the police might make against legalization is that it deprives them of a useful tool -- an immoral tool, but nonetheless vital -- for getting scumbags off the street.

Example: The cops stop a guy who they basically know committed a murder or a rape or some other violent crime, but they don't have the evidence to hold him. He'd call his lawyer, the lawyer would come in and make sure he's held for no more than the maximum number of hours, then he'd be freed and nothing gained by anyone. But if they can nail him on possession, they at least can get him off the streets for some days, weeks, or months, while they gather the evidence to really put him away.

Not really the spirit of the law, but it works. That said, I'd rather we focus more resources on the few sociopaths and violent types out there, and clear out the over-crowded prisons.

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#44

Post by cubano » Wed, Oct 21, 2015, 1:48 PM UTC

I just don't think many people realize just how much legal corporate and government "business" is created by the insane war on drugs, and I am convinced this is the reason why it continues.

Like I mentioned before, I just spent 6 months in the deep bowels of the criminal justice system for drug possession here in Florida, and those observations have shaped this view.

The cops, the judges, the lawyers on both sides (who eventually become the politicians that make the laws), the clerks, the guards (do they hate being called that!), the jail/prison administrators...they ALL are making pretty awesome livings from the war on drugs, and have zero repeat ZERO incentive to change anything.

The problem is not a legal one, it's economic.

The public is fed the propaganda of wrecked lives and violence to keep the status quo...until the population somehow wakes up and sees how the CJS is totally broken as perhaps even more corrupt then the drug game, I doubt anything can change.

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#45

Post by wz1000 » Wed, Oct 21, 2015, 1:50 PM UTC

ptaipale wrote: post #29

TeMPOraL wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting that we actually have a potential big opponent for the drug cartels - drug companies. Legalizing drugs will drive cartels out of business because they'd be competing with clean drugs sold in pharmacies, prepared in well-funded laboratories of entities used to cooperating with safety regulations. So why the Big Pharma isn't lobbying for ending the war on drugs? I wonder if it isn't the social view tha…

> So why the Big Pharma isn't lobbying for ending the war on drugs? Because the stuff used as illegal drugs is actually dangerous to health, and pharma industry selling that stuff -- even if completely pure and legitimate -- would be disastrous for their public image, and profits. The public will want separate recreational drug companies (but even then there will be "revelations" that Big Pharma is "secretly" produci…

> Because the stuff used as illegal drugs is actually dangerous to health

Recreational drugs are not inherently any more dangerous than the chemicals produced for medicinal use. They are the same kind of thing, recreational drugs just happen to be used for, well, recreation.

Some recreational chemicals are even less dangerous than drugs you can get OTC. For example, LSD has a stellar safety record. There are no recorded overdoses on it, and no known long term physical side effects. It is impossible to get addicted to LSD, because frequent use builds up a massive short term tolerance extremely quickly.

Contrast that with acetaminophen. It is widely and cheaply available, overused by a large number of people and it does some serious damage to your liver. You can also overdose on it.

Also, the pharmaceutical industry already produces many chemicals that are used recreationally, like opiates, benzodiazepines, amphetamines(including methamphetamine), various other stimulants, ketamine, DXM etc.

Infact, the only class of popular recreational compounds they don't produce happen to be the comparatively much safer psychedelics including tryptamines, phenylethylamines and lysergamides.

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#46

Post by kawa » Wed, Oct 21, 2015, 1:51 PM UTC

fsloth wrote: post #31

kawa wrote: post #18

There's only so much profit in the drug business because of the illegality of many drugs. Changing that would kill the profits of many very rich and powerful criminals and cartels. So it's very understandable that those people do everything they can to prevent their business model from collapsing. The usual way of doing it is simply lots of lobbying: Paying "well meaning" people, journalists and politicians to stay o…

I have no idea if gangsters partake in lobbying but I find it hard to believe it would be the main cause for the continuing policies. Some hold the view that the war on drugs is mainly ideological. Chomsky has quite a critical view of the matter. E.g. "So there are two possibilities: Either those conducting the Drug War are lunatics, or they have another purpose." http://hightimes.com/read/high-times-interview-noam-c…

Politics works on a combination of public opinion and donations to candidates and parties. If you have a lot of money, it's quite easy to move things a bit in the direction you want. Also here, you're doing it for a "good cause", because we all know that drugs are bad and everybody should think of the children, etc...

So of course many people don't suspect bad intentions here, maybe even many politicians or organizations which are on the receiving end of a donation, which originated from drug money.

Of course there are some other reasons too, but considering the amount of stupidity which is necessary to really believe that the "war on drugs" can be won, it's quite unlikely that there isn't lots of active lobbying involved to let the war continue as long as possible.

In the end, it's just a very profitable business and the people involved aren't stupid and have lots of money at their disposal. So why shouldn't they do it?

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#47

Post by code_sterling » Wed, Oct 21, 2015, 1:54 PM UTC

bluedino wrote: post #42

awjr wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very valid point. I don't see the UK government however changing their approach. Treating addiction as a disease just enables the government to vilify users. Many low-level heroin/cocaine users just lead normal lives. As do many low-level wine users. The only way I see this changing is when it financially makes sense. Taking Colorado as a model, the UK could get in the region of £400million a year in tax be…

>> Many low-level heroin/cocaine users just lead normal lives. As do many low-level wine users. This is a pretty ridiculous comparison

Hardly, just because alcohol is socially accepted doesn't mean it's not a drug. Alcohol and heroine are considered the most harmful drugs out there. It's an apt comparison.

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#48

Post by sixQuarks » Wed, Oct 21, 2015, 2:02 PM UTC

Besides all of the stated reasons to legalize/decriminalize, I think just as important is personal liberty.

I should be free to experiment with my own consciousness (so long as it does not impede on the rights of others) - how much more personal can you get? For the government to impede on this is unconscionable (pun intended).

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#49

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Oct 21, 2015, 2:03 PM UTC

peterwwillis wrote: post #37

Violent crime in America rose dramatically as a result of worsening racial ties after the death of Martin Luther King, a lack of employment and investment in local communities, and an increase in use of heroin and (later) easier to produce drugs like crack. Increase in the number of robbery and petty crime identically track both the increase in use of and violence associated with drug use. But the war on drugs' main…

[deleted]

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#50

Post by JoeAltmaier » Wed, Oct 21, 2015, 2:04 PM UTC

wz1000 wrote: post #45

ptaipale wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So why the Big Pharma isn't lobbying for ending the war on drugs? Because the stuff used as illegal drugs is actually dangerous to health, and pharma industry selling that stuff -- even if completely pure and legitimate -- would be disastrous for their public image, and profits. The public will want separate recreational drug companies (but even then there will be "revelations" that Big Pharma is "secretly" produci…

> Because the stuff used as illegal drugs is actually dangerous to health Recreational drugs are not inherently any more dangerous than the chemicals produced for medicinal use. They are the same kind of thing, recreational drugs just happen to be used for, well, recreation. Some recreational chemicals are even less dangerous than drugs you can get OTC. For example, LSD has a stellar safety record. There are no recor…

Recreational drugs typically get overused, to the point of toxicity. Just do a 'ride-along' with your emergency room nurse friend any weekend evening, and keep count of overdose cases - prescribed vs recreational.